Extractors

[Aragorn]

Extractors are not something I generally worry about. Maybe I'm charmed, but I've never broken one (knock on wood). I did have a moment of confusion last night though. I've been debating grabbing a spare or two 'just in case' and was specifically eyeballing Umbrella's 4340 version. I like that they list the material it's made from, the processes used, and that its all good. I got thrown for a loop though when I went hunting to see what kinda of extractor is in my Relia-bolts (had one, and recently just purchased a Sharp's Balanced BCG) and found that it's C-158.

I have no idea which is better/stronger... I can assume 4340>4140 per Umbrella's site, but where does C-158 fall in as an extractor material? I mean I know it's great for a bolt and all.

All of you who have broken extractors, any idea what they were made out of?

As a laterally related aside, all mine get 'upgraded' with springs from either BCM or Springco.

[alamo5000]

When I get home I will do some googling to confirm but I think the C158 is more of the "mil spec" carpenter steel. That said I see many manufacturers turning to newer metals. My Griffin BCG for example is not "carpenter steel".

Neither is my CMT one.

If you ask purists they will bitch and complain about companies "cutting corners" in their eyes...but personally I think it's not like that at all. From what I read the newer materials exceed "mil spec" but it's a hard sell to many.

If you read up on the internet you're going to see a lot of flame wars on the subject of what metal is used.

Personally I think you won't have a problem either way.

[alamo5000]

Basically if NASA came out with a metal that weighs 1/2 the weight of aluminum, could dissipate heat to 12,000 degrees and was 3 times more abrasion resistant than AR500 people would bitch because it wasn't mil spec.

[SINNER]

C158 is Carpenter Steel's part number for a proprietary steel only they make. It's about 7% weaker than 9310 in its untreated form. With proper heat treating it can exceed 9310. A C158 extractor would be about 30% weaker than 4340 IIRC.

[UWone77]

Basically if NASA came out with a metal that weighs 1/2 the weight of aluminum, could dissipate heat to 12,000 degrees and was 3 times more abrasion resistant than AR500 people would bitch because it wasn't mil spec.

This is just silly.

[SINNER]

He found that on the silly Google page.

[alamo5000]

This is just silly.

I was saying that's what it sounds like reading what some of those people say when they argue about some of this stuff... nothing more than that...

It is silly... that was intentional. I was being ridiculous on purpose.

[UWone77]

I've never broken a C158 bolt, but I have broken numerous 9310 bolts. I find that 9310's were probably not heat treated correctly, as they usually broke within 500 rounds but the C158's were because... you guessed it, milspec.

I have no doubt that we can go beyond milspec, such as KAC E3 Bolts, but it's a minimum standard people still fail to reach.

[JGifford]

I like qpq treated extractors. They seem to keep their crispness longer when shooting steel or high round counts of brass. I've literally never seen an extractor break that wasn't in a kb.

[Aragorn]

Boom. Exactly the info I needed.

Thanks!

[Joelski]

This is just silly.

TOS.

[Joelski]

You're right; you just don't see as much of that here as other places around the web *Buy a COLT!*

It's like I have a several knives made of S30V stainless, and I also have a custom made of S110V. Some people think the steel in that custom is actually 70 somethings of order better than the steel in the standard knives.

[JGifford]

You're right; you just don't see as much of that here as other places around the web *Buy a COLT!*

It's like I have a several knives made of S30V stainless, and I also have a custom made of S110V. Some people think the steel in that custom is actually 70 somethings of order better than the steel in the standard knives.

Well, honestly, S30V is only as good as its temper, etc. I know absolutely dick about actually working metal, and I promise if you gave me the purest S30V with all the right tools, I'd hand you the crappiest knife you've owned, lol

I have bought BCG's other than Colt, but I had to upgrade them to get reliable function the way I wanted, to Colt specs. I now automatically trash any non-Colt ejector springs. I've seen ejector springs from BCM, Azimuth, Daniel Defense, and they are all DIFFERENT. Sure, they fit in the tunnel, but the Colt fits best, and produces the most reliable and crisp ejection.

Is this a big issue for most? No. but when you shoot high round counts suppressed, it's nice to EJECT casings instead of watching them dribble out of the gun or be hit by the BCG as it returns to battery because your ejection spring is weak. In the case of the BCM BCG, it resulted in stove-pipes after 4K rounds (*This was sent to a friend of mine to fix, I did not personally witness it, but know the parties involved.)

For extractor springs, Ken's "Green" spring gets the nod from me.

That's kindof my formula for making a gun RUN.

Sprinco action spring (Green if rifle/A5, Blue if carbine), Colt ejector spring, Ken Elmoore "Green" extractor spring. I then select the heaviest buffer that I get reliable lock-back with a DIRTY weapon using PMC .223 Bronze ammo with, and that also feeds the next round when initially fired with a full 30 round USGI magazine in the magwell, and 1 in the chamber, using same ammo. If I am on a budget (time or ammo), chemically de-greasing the BCG and upper with gun-scrubber serves the same as getting the weapon filthy. Fire a few fouling shots to make it gritty, and test. Since I use hotter ammo than .223 PMC Bronze for social occasions, this has worked just fine with plenty of margin of error. Build in any MORE margin of error, and you end up under-buffered/sprung.

Unless something is absolutely jacked up with your weapon in a physical sense, this puts things right.

I guess my point in all of this is that no, names don't mean a damn thing, but when you have a bunch of people copying an object, variance is bound to exist, and it's up to the end user to find the flavor that works. For me, Colt ejector springs WORK. So do their copper-wash extractor springs, but they are not as corrosion proof as the "Green". I spend a lot of time obsessing over tiny little details like this, and it's why I can run carbine courses without more than an initial application of MPRO7 LPX, shooting nearly 2000 rounds of Wolf, suppressed, and have a perfectly functioning weapon and a great time with no issues.

*Yes, I have even run the HK braided ejector spring in T&E under 240fps film. It's a really really sexy spring! But the Colt works just as well to better, IME

[alamo5000]

TOS.

What does TOS mean?

Honestly I have no clue.

[radar707]

What does TOS mean?

Honestly I have no clue.

usually means ar15.com The Other Site

[gatordev]

Because certain individuals can't accept the fact that theirs isn't the one and only true voice of the (perceived) gospel truth.

[din]

Well, honestly, S30V is only as good as its temper, etc. I know absolutely dick about actually working metal, and I promise if you gave me the purest S30V with all the right tools, I'd hand you the crappiest knife you've owned, lol

I have bought BCG's other than Colt, but I had to upgrade them to get reliable function the way I wanted, to Colt specs. I now automatically trash any non-Colt ejector springs. I've seen ejector springs from BCM, Azimuth, Daniel Defense, and they are all DIFFERENT. Sure, they fit in the tunnel, but the Colt fits best, and produces the most reliable and crisp ejection.

Is this a big issue for most? No. but when you shoot high round counts suppressed, it's nice to EJECT casings instead of watching them dribble out of the gun or be hit by the BCG as it returns to battery because your ejection spring is weak. In the case of the BCM BCG, it resulted in stove-pipes after 4K rounds (*This was sent to a friend of mine to fix, I did not personally witness it, but know the parties involved.)

For extractor springs, Ken's "Green" spring gets the nod from me.

That's kindof my formula for making a gun RUN.

Sprinco action spring (Green if rifle/A5, Blue if carbine), Colt ejector spring, Ken Elmoore "Green" extractor spring. I then select the heaviest buffer that I get reliable lock-back with a DIRTY weapon using PMC .223 Bronze ammo with, and that also feeds the next round when initially fired with a full 30 round USGI magazine in the magwell, and 1 in the chamber, using same ammo. If I am on a budget (time or ammo), chemically de-greasing the BCG and upper with gun-scrubber serves the same as getting the weapon filthy. Fire a few fouling shots to make it gritty, and test. Since I use hotter ammo than .223 PMC Bronze for social occasions, this has worked just fine with plenty of margin of error. Build in any MORE margin of error, and you end up under-buffered/sprung.

Unless something is absolutely jacked up with your weapon in a physical sense, this puts things right.

I guess my point in all of this is that no, names don't mean a damn thing, but when you have a bunch of people copying an object, variance is bound to exist, and it's up to the end user to find the flavor that works. For me, Colt ejector springs WORK. So do their copper-wash extractor springs, but they are not as corrosion proof as the "Green". I spend a lot of time obsessing over tiny little details like this, and it's why I can run carbine courses without more than an initial application of MPRO7 LPX, shooting nearly 2000 rounds of Wolf, suppressed, and have a perfectly functioning weapon and a great time with no issues.

*Yes, I have even run the HK braided ejector spring in T&E under 240fps film. It's a really really sexy spring! But the Colt works just as well to better, IME

J, you have a link for Ken's springs? I did a quick google search and his old website is kaput.

[alamo5000]

usually means ar15.com The Other Site

AH!!! I see. Thanks!


Because certain individuals can't accept the fact that theirs isn't the one and only true voice of the (perceived) gospel truth.

That is pretty much my point that I was trying to make (didn't do a very good job)... I am not knocking 'mil spec' by a mile. Not even close... but there are a bunch of people making things that are to my knowledge technically NOT true mil-spec if you are talking about the letter of it. To my limited knowledge Fathom, Griffin, CMT, and probably a bunch of others have offerings that don't use carpenter steel...

I could be totally wrong but there were a number of people who were throwing out the whole lot because in their view it's 'not as good' or 'inferior' or whatever.

Truth be told I don't know a whole lot about specific working properties of metals. On one of those threads I've seen Griffin getting completely thrown under the bus for even offering a bolt that isn't carpenter steel. Now consider that for a while now I have been running that bolt and carrier that they've been bitching about...

It basically just leads me to think that having an open mind to new offerings isn't always a bad thing. I am generally pretty skeptical myself about some of the stuff I see but every now and then things work out just fine.

[DISCOM]

Din

What you are looking for is

http://www.specializedarmament.com

Part number in question
SA42602

[din]

Thanks, Dis.

[JGifford]

J, you have a link for Ken's springs? I did a quick google search and his old website is kaput.

http://www.specializedarmament.com/products/Extractor_Spring_Assembly_SA-1087-292.html

[JGifford]

AH!!! I see. Thanks!



That is pretty much my point that I was trying to make (didn't do a very good job)... I am not knocking 'mil spec' by a mile. Not even close... but there are a bunch of people making things that are to my knowledge technically NOT true mil-spec if you are talking about the letter of it. To my limited knowledge Fathom, Griffin, CMT, and probably a bunch of others have offerings that don't use carpenter steel...

I could be totally wrong but there were a number of people who were throwing out the whole lot because in their view it's 'not as good' or 'inferior' or whatever.

Truth be told I don't know a whole lot about specific working properties of metals. On one of those threads I've seen Griffin getting completely thrown under the bus for even offering a bolt that isn't carpenter steel. Now consider that for a while now I have been running that bolt and carrier that they've been bitching about...

It basically just leads me to think that having an open mind to new offerings isn't always a bad thing. I am generally pretty skeptical myself about some of the stuff I see but every now and then things work out just fine.

Well, part of it is this...we KNOW milspec works, and we know how it works. It is a known quantity. We have all seen things that promise better, and deliver worse. The sharps reliabolt is a perfect example. S7. Broke left and right. Should have been better by a mile. Wasnt.

So, milspec is the easy button, so to speak.

I simply choose to T&E the snot out of something and THEN trust it. That has worked great for me. After a few thousand rounds, I begin to form an opinion of its long term viability. Stuff I have found that offers me value:

A5
Springs action springs
Azimuth qpq bcg
Colt ejector springs
Ken green extractor spring
Badger g3 ch
Badger bolt release

These things have all proven to work very well, but are not milspec necessarily.

Stuff I've had that sucked:

Rubber city armory bcg
Azimuth ejector springs
Milspec action springs on a dirty weapon in humid weather

[gatordev]

I tend to go down a similar path as JGifford...MILSPEC is a known quantity. However...




That is pretty much my point that I was trying to make (didn't do a very good job)... I am not knocking 'mil spec' by a mile. Not even close... but there are a bunch of people making things that are to my knowledge technically NOT true mil-spec if you are talking about the letter of it. To my limited knowledge Fathom, Griffin, CMT, and probably a bunch of others have offerings that don't use carpenter steel...


For the record, my comment had nothing to do with "MILSPEC" or any specific parts or parts manufacturing company.

[Joelski]

I have bought BCG's other than Colt, but I had to upgrade them to get reliable function the way I wanted, to Colt specs. I now automatically trash any non-Colt ejector springs. I've seen ejector springs from BCM, Azimuth, Daniel Defense, and they are all DIFFERENT. Sure, they fit in the tunnel, but the Colt fits best, and produces the most reliable and crisp ejection.

When I started putting AR's toghether, I was told by a contract builder the only trustworthy small parts are Colt and RRA.

[Stone]

I like qpq treated extractors. They seem to keep their crispness longer when shooting steel or high round counts of brass. I've literally never seen an extractor break that wasn't in a kb.

Where are you getting the nitrided extractors from? Got a link?

[JGifford]

Where are you getting the nitrided extractors from? Got a link?

Any azimuth qpq bcg I am aware of has em.

[Stone]

Any azimuth qpq bcg I am aware of has em.

I was just looking for a few spare extractors, not a BCG assembly.

[JGifford]

I was just looking for a few spare extractors, not a BCG assembly.

Reach out to azimuth. They are small enough they might

[Aragorn]

I called Sharp's today to find out what extractor material they're using right from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Turns out it's NOT C-158 (or perhaps not anymore?) but 4340.

Just thought I'd pass that along.

[Aragorn]

So something else all this has me wondering about. Extractor and ejector springs. Here, and pretty much everywhere else, extra power extractor springs always seem to be recommended. Is there any "balancing" that needs to be done with the ejector spring? I.e. if you go to a stronger extractor spring, do you need a stronger ejector spring as well? I was reading elsewhere that in some extreme cases an extra power extractor spring used with an insert and O-ring (which all sounds like overkill to me), that it would "overpower" the ejector spring and cause malfunctions.

I've used extra power extractor springs before from BCM, and I think Springco (I found the slip for one in my spare parts box), and I've just ran them with a black insert and no O-ring. Everything seems kosher. I've also ran BCG's where I haven't changed anything and it still seemed to run fine. I guess I'm just curious from an academic perspective.

Also how do you know if you even need an extra power spring? Ejection pattern? Is it just preventative to ensure positive extraction? I mean I understand you'd use one to cure weak extraction, but are there other reasons to use one? Also read that some of the aftermarket springs were adding a substantial amount of stress to the system.

[Slippers]

Yes, there's a balance. Too much extractor tension will overpower the ejector. I'm of the opinion that as long as you stick to Colt springs you'll be fine.

[Aragorn]

Yes, there's a balance. Too much extractor tension will overpower the ejector. I'm of the opinion that as long as you stick to Colt springs you'll be fine.

Such as the copper colored spring? Or the Ken green spring? Or either/or? All I know about the green spring is what JGifford brought up earlier, that both work but the green is slightly more corrosion resistant. That and it's labeled heavy duty on the website, which to my mind translates to extra power... unless I'm misinterpreting.

[Slippers]

Extractor: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/extractor-parts/extractor-springs/ar15a4-extractor-spring-assembly-prod4840.aspx

Ejector: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/bolt-parts/ejector-parts/ejector-springs/ar15a4-ejector-safety-detent-spring-prod4842.aspx