Battle of the Bolt Actions

[alamo5000]

There are a bunch of different choices for bolt action guns. Specifically I am talking larger short or long action bolt guns, .30 cal or others in that general area.

You have Remington 700 and the clones of that. You have Savage. There are a bunch of different ones to pick from. For example I've seen some 'Remington 700' clone actions that sell for over $1000 bucks just for the action (as an example). Surgeon rifles have their own... I mean as I dug into it the list is long. It's almost as bad as trying to pick out a AR reciever set.

My question is, what makes a good bolt action? What are some of the 'traits' to look for? Are some polished to have a smoother cycling? Do some use better materials? I am not talking about barrels and all that yet.

It is probably just like everything else 'the soup' you get from a sum total of quality components will make your rifle...

Basically what makes that $1300 Remington 700 action clone (just for the action) worth $1300 when I can get an actual whole rifle for that?

Does anyone have comments or opinions about various types and styles of bolt action rifles or anything that's demonstrated superiority over the others?

I know it's a complicated or pretty wide open topic so run whatever direction you feel. Anything helps me learn.

[Josh S.]

If you're trying to squeeze every bit of accuracy and consistency that you can out of the rifle and want a better resale value, then an aftermarket action is the only way to go in my opinion. Surgeon, Defiance, GAP Tempest, etc... The Surgeon 591 for example has an integral recoil lug ($50), integral 20 MOA base ($150), side bolt release ($100), one piece bolt ($200), spiral fluted bolt ($150), oversized bolt knob ($150), and it's already trued ($200). All of that on top of the price of a Remington 700 action and you're looking at about $1400 and you still don't have the Surgeon name for resale value, the piece of mind knowing that Surgeon built it, or the bragging rights. I'm not sure what materials each action is made of, but I can almost guarantee you that Surgeon uses superior materials. I'm not saying a high-dollar action is for everyone, but they do have their place and in my opinion their price is totally justified.

[schambers]

I'm bored so be prepared to read more than you may have bargained for:


My question is, what makes a good bolt action?

In my opinion, the thing that makes a good action (and quality firearm components/ parts for that matter) is the time and effort devoted the product's design and production.

Generally, when you have an action or a firearm component that is produced to higher standards, it requires less time and effort to incorporate it into an overall system, and in general provides greater accuracy potential.

Again, generally speaking, companies that produce "custom" actions (Stiller, Defiance, Surgeon, American Rifle Company, Badger, etc.) will spend more time and resources in production and design, in order to produce a consistently precise product over time; which is the reason their base actions cost significantly more and are more desirable, compared to a base action from a large company such as Remington, Savage, etc.

As stated above, you can buy a $400 Remington action and spend anywhere from $300-$1000 to have it trued and tricked out and whatnot. At the end of the day you'll end up with something that has the potential to shoot 90%-100% as well as an action that cost $1000-$1500 from the start, but required no additional work.


Are some polished to have a smoother cycling?

I think a lot of people get way to wrapped up around this idea that one action is somehow greatly superior to another in how smooth it is. I've used a lot of actions and I haven't perceived as a significant difference between manufacturer and smoothness of the action. I've run stock Remington actions that have been smoother than aftermarket actions. The major contributing factor I see in smoothness is a result of use. To me, guns with higher round counts generally have a smoother feel, probably because their finish has worn down and there is less friction between the parts. Actions that are kept in the white also seem to be smoother. Again, probably because there is less friction acting against the parts.

I should also point out that there are factors that I think people falsely attribute to "smoothness." Those are the way in which the firing pin is cocked, and bolt binding. Some manufacturers differ in design of their firing pin cocking mechanism, and the amount of force it takes to cock the firing pin. I don't particularly think one design is better than another, but its a way some manufacturers differentiate themselves. Bolts are designed to run straight backwards and forwards inside an action. Bolt binding is is when the operator runs an action and imparts to much force upwards or downwards when loading a round, causing the bold face to rub against the top or bottom of the action. This causes lots of friction and binds the bolt. Generally, I've found that there is less potential for bolt binding to occur when an action's tolerances are higher. Higher tolerances are generally found in more expensive actions.


What are some of the 'traits' to look for?

Just like everything else, you can go down a lot of rabbit holes looking at different features. I personally like:

- Integrated recoil lug (makes ordering new barrels significantly cheaper because the gunsmith can turn a barrel to a blueprint you provide him, as opposed to sending in your action to be fit against a uniquey cut recoil lug that has been fit to your unique action)
- Fluted bolt (People say fluting helps in mitigating the effects of debris and ice. I've never had a bolt bind because of dirt or ice but its a nice thing to have and its standard on almost all aftermarket actions at this point)
- Integrated bolt stop (Another nice-to-have feature for me)
- Non-integral picatinny base (I prefer a base that I can replace if I decide to re-purpose the action and require it to have more or less built in MOA)
- Sako, M16-sytle, or mauser-style extractor (more reliable and positive extraction compared to the Remington style)
- Compatibility with Remington pattern parts (makes finding aftermarket triggers and chassis a lot easier and cheaper)


It is probably just like everything else 'the soup' you get from a sum total of quality components will make your rifle...

You are totally right. The end product really comes down to how the components work with each other and how well your gunsmith can put them together.

I may argue that the action may actually be the thing that you should be least concerned about. All the small features that different manufacturers offer are generally quality of life things. At they end of the day, all actions will do what you want them to do, which is move a round from your magazine into the barrel, and then take it out.

I've spent more time talking with my gunsmith about barrels, than anything else. I think if you figure out what you want to do with your gun, then what bullet you want to shoot, what cartridge, type or barrel, and then the action.



When it comes to long range precision shooting, consistent and accurate performance over time is what ultimately matters and custom actions can get you there with less fuss. How much you want to spend on diminishing returns in pursuit of that goal is up to you.



PS.

All the actions have different tradeoffs but they are all very good, and I think you'll be happy with whatever you end up with.


If you haven't already, check out the Mausingfield from American Rifle Company and the M2013 from Badger. Those are two companies that are doing things slightly different compared to the Defiance, Stiller, and Surgeons.


FWIW, I currently own a Remington and a Stiller action. I just ordered a Badger M2013 and that action should be finished and ready to shoot before Christmas.



PPS.

Current production Remington, Savage and Ruger guns are all pretty good at this point. If all you want is ~1MOA accuracy out to 300, you can probably buy a rifle from one of the major manufacturers, drop it into a rigid chassis and call it a day.

[alamo5000]

I have talked about it before here on the forum... but here is some thoughts.

In an ideal world I will learn how to do some basic gunsmith work. I see all kinds of guns out there but I'm not really finding 'exactly' what I want (as a package). I've seen some that are close but they are super expensive. I am not really looking at resale value as I will be keeping what I get.

Don't get me wrong, I still can see virtue in buying a built gun but dropping 5 grand (not including the optic) is kind of steep. I would like to learn how to rebarrel a rifle... I have talked to several people locally here that have all done it. To me that's like knowing how to change a flat tire on your car.

I hear different stories...some people say it's not that hard provided you have the right tools and others (online) tend to say send it to someone. It can't be impossible to do.

Ideally I would like to have a 1/2 moa shooter in a 260 chambering. Trying to go for ridiculous benchrest 1 hole groups seems cool and all but for my purpose it won't be needed. The reason being is after about 700 yards the wind takes over and that takes away those otherwise pinpoint shots. It will then be a matter of skill and being able to read the wind. The whole idea is to have a gun that can easily stretch out to beyond 1000 yards. 1,400 or more yards would be even better. I see some rifles offered in 6.5CM but I am not sold on that for a number of reasons. I would much rather go for a much more common (and less expensive) brass. I would rather take the time to buy 1000 cases of .308 and convert it vs paying $1 per piece of brass. I am not that big on things that aren't fully mainstream. I don't know but CM might be a fad. Hell I don't know. If everybody and their brother made brass for CM I might have a different feeling.

If things go to plan though and I learn how to do what I want to do if I decide to try CM later on then so be it.

It is about the gun, but it is also about the project. I really like learning things so it seems like a good project and I have several people that will help me when I need it. We have several extremely good gunsmiths nearby basically willing to offer me lessons.

Anyway long story short I am thinking about pricing everything out and seeing if I can get the parts for something satisfactory and then compare cost.

At this point it's just a thought. If I can get back into some good investments sooner rather than later then I have a lot more options. But even if I can ultimately afford to buy a really nice rifle it's still for me a lot of fun and has a lot of satisfaction to learn how to do it.

I am guessing a Remington 700 clone is a good pattern to use. I also see savage has theirs. I see a lot of people that have a lot of stuff. I am just not sure which style is better or worse than the others.

[jbjh]

Really, just open a page with a Remington or Savage and another with any of the customs named above (I'll add Big Horn, Kelby, BAT and GAP). Besides looking different as a whole, zoom in on the threads, the ejection port, the bolt raceway - the machining and detail work is amazing. All of the parts fit flawlessly. The truing and tight tolerances are already built in.

The major manufacturers build for convenience, not tight tolerances.

I'd also say that the process and procedures used to assemble the pieces is just as important. Buy any action you want, and get a spot to build it yourself with Robert Gradous at his shop. The education you get will be worth far more than buying any custom gun.


Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy

[alamo5000]

Really, just open a page with a Remington or Savage and another with any of the customs named above (I'll add Big Horn, Kelby, BAT and GAP). Besides looking different as a whole, zoom in on the threads, the ejection port, the bolt raceway - the machining and detail work is amazing. All of the parts fit flawlessly. The truing and tight tolerances are already built in.

The major manufacturers build for convenience, not tight tolerances.

I'd also say that the process and procedures used to assemble the pieces is just as important. Buy any action you want, and get a spot to build it yourself with Robert Gradous at his shop. The education you get will be worth far more than buying any custom gun.


Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy

It might not be at his shop (never heard of him) but there are 2-3 people around where I am that I can go to and they will teach me things. I like that stuff. If I wind up going down that path I won't be skimping on parts that's for sure. It's not an urgent need that I have a rifle... but I would rather get something I really want. When I built my ARs I held out and saved up for things and I am way more happy with it now. I had to hold out for a bit longer to get something nice but it was worth it.

I get it that the machine work and fitment is far superior. I can see how that would easily be. Just on my .22 I can see that. The factory gun is flat out sloppy. I got the chance to compare that to a Kidd rifle and it was apples and oranges.

I don't know about the pattern to pick though. I see so many different kinds. I would guess that a 700 style would have more options for a stock or chasis? I am not sure if that's true or not. I am not sure which types (patterns) there even are or what difference it makes.

Surgeon is good. Defiance is good. Just based off of a random 'that looks cool' look at their web page I am leaning towards Defiance based sheerly off the fact that I have read their page more than others (not a very good reason).

http://defiancemachine.com/

But there is definitely a learning curve there in knowing what to look for.

You have the Rebel, Tactical, Hunter, Ultralite, Mutant...each one is a slightly different style. I am liking the look of the Deviant Tactical. It's a 700 clone.

http://defiancemachine.com/deviant-tactical/

Then just look at this page (as an example)...

http://defiancemachine.com/options/

Those various options are more complicated than it looks. Does a rear tang matter? And if so how much? What about the bolt handle? Long story short there is a big learning curve.

If it takes me two years to build up a rifle that's fine. The gratification for me is of course in the rifle, but also in the process.

As for right now I have no idea what to pick. I am still in window shopping mode until I can learn more stuff or if it's even going to be worth it to try and build something (despite the help I will get).

[alamo5000]

Long story short buying a kick ass bolt gun isn't cheap. $5000++ dollars.

While I am in no way advocating or considering doing it 'just to save money' if I can get the parts for cheaper and then also take the time to learn about building that is good for me.

On the flip side of that I might be going down a rabbit hole here.

[jbjh]

Long story short buying a kick ass bolt gun isn't cheap. $5000++ dollars.

While I am in no way advocating or considering doing it 'just to save money' if I can get the parts for cheaper and then also take the time to learn about building that is good for me.

On the flip side of that I might be going down a rabbit hole here.

Go to a precision rifle event and take a look at what folks are shooting. Ask to try out one or two and get a feel for the differences. Take notes and pictures so you have a reference as to what you were thinking. Everybody has their favorites, but you should be able to discern why a Surgeon, Badger, Defiance, etc are liked by different people.

Also, consider picking up a used gun from one of the matheletes on Snipers Hide forum. It's a lot less investment for what will be a guess your first time out. You can sell it for pretty much what you bought it for, and get a chance to try out a different configuration or two before you go all in and drop $5K on a gun.

As far as learning from the guys in your area, that's good to gain some knowledge. I'm sure they're competent machinists, and I'm not casting aspersions, but there's a world of difference between hanging out getting a bit of knowledge from the local guys and taking a gunsmithing class from a master rifle builder like Gradous, as the $1850 fee indicates. Only real downside is being limited to a Surgeon action.


Sent from 80ms in the future
Jimmy