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rxer311
1 December 2016, 15:57
To start the thread out I need to outline specifically the information I am looking for.

I am a resident of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and this past month a bill was signed into law lifting the ban on semi-auto hunting here. Basically, the ban is lifted but it is up to the game commission to outline the new rules. I have been in communication with some other sources that I consider reliable that are telling me that hunting small game will probably be approved for all calibers including the 5.56 or .223. The same sources are also telling me that it is very likely that they will allow deer hunting with semi-auto rifles, but caliber will (rightfully and reasonably IMO) be restricted to .243 and above.

I have to admit that up to this point I have not been a hunter, but have always been interested into getting into the sport. Up to this point the only other caliber that I know anything (though still not much) about is the 300 blk.

So my questions are as follows:
1. What calibers are available to me in a small frame AR?
2. What are the limitations of those calibers? Where do they excel? (ex. what are my range limitations, ballistic expectations, etc)

In Pennsylvania, the longest shot I could probably take a shot at would be 200 yds, max...but most shots would probably be 150 yds and in (more likely 100 yds and in). Though if I put this rig together, I may want to take it with me to other areas of the country, so I am also interested in versatility.

Is 300 blk good enough or should I just build a large frame AR in .308?

Stone
1 December 2016, 16:07
6.8 would be perfect for you. There is everything you wanted to know and more at http://68forums.com/forums/forum.php
Good bunch of dudes over there.

cjd3
1 December 2016, 18:43
In all honesty, if you want to hunt, get a bolt action that matches your game needs. Now with that out of the way, there are a lot of calibers and a lot of bullets, and I think the most important thing is terminal ballistics of the bullet you plan on using with game you are hunting. For me, I hunt with Nosler Partitions, and need a minimum of 1800 fps at impact for proper expansion. A 6.5 Grendel should do well with medium game. If you go to the AR-10 platform, you've got a lot of great hunting cartridges including the 6.5 Creedmore, and of course the .308 Win.

alamo5000
1 December 2016, 19:12
I am not a big hunter (although I will eat Bambi's big brother in a minute) but I am with cjd3. For hunting I would opt for a bolt action. It obviously depends on what you're hunting though. Rabbits and squirrels, fine.... but deer or whatever the idea at least in my mind is to focus on terminal ballistics and making one shot one kill ethical shots.

Then again hunting pigs is a totally different story. Pig hunting is flat out designed for semi auto action.

Basically my point is there is no one trick pony. In Texas for example we have magazine limits for just about everything hunting wise except pigs. With pigs you can get a drum mag and go at it. Try that with a deer and you're screwed. It automatically makes trying to use an AR a pain in the butt. It's been known to happen that game wardens will give certain people extra scrutiny depending on what kind of firearm they are using. Believe me, here, they WILL do a mag check.

Also it depends largely on the terrain and where you hunt. If you for example have to hike your ass off to get to your spot to shoot a deer that gun gets heavy as hell if you're carryin a .338. If you live in a thick forested area with a lot of brush or whatever your really long barrel lengths are a pain in the ass AND you won't ever get a long distance shot.

Basically just because they let you hunt with a semi auto doesn't IMO mean it's always the best tool for the job.

BoilerUp
1 December 2016, 19:31
WA has a .243 minimum for hunting, too, so my deer rifle is an AR chambered in 6.8 SPC. It's a great round that delivers impressive performance out of a compact little cartridge that operates well in an AR15. The 5R barrels from AR15 performance ( http://www.ar15performance.com/6_8_spc__six5 ) provide sub-moa accuracy for a great price. Best performance is achieved if you reload, but Federal Fusion and Hornady SST are very popular factory rounds for hunting. As a bonus, at least one foreign military uses the 6.8 (Saudi, I think) so for a while you could get contract overruns and pulls from factory seconds of the 90 gr Gold Dot quite cheap. The contract appears to have been filled, though, so the cheap 6.8 has dried up at least for now.

Here is my setup (I use a 10 round mag for hunting, but this is shown with a 30 round Barrett mag):
https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zTHX8hJ/0/X2/i-zTHX8hJ-X2.jpg

At PA hunting distances, you would also do OK with a 300 BLK using the 110 gr Barnes TAC-TX round, but if doing a purpose-built hunting AR then I really think 6.8 is the better choice. Daniel Defense was selling 6.8 SPC hunting ARs for a while through their "Ambush" line. I'm hopeful they'll bring those back into the market after their new facility gets going.

If you reload, there are some other interesting wildcats, such as a the .277 Wolverine and 270AR, among others.

The "large frame" / AR10 / SR25 pattern is way more rifle than you need for PA deer. I know their are hunters out their that think they need magnum rounds for white tail, but if you can't bring down a white tail with a 6.8 it ain't the gun's fault. And my 6.8 AR weighs less than my hunting buddy's bolt action Remmy (although, in all fairness, a large portion of the weight difference is attributed to our respective optics choices).

fledge
1 December 2016, 21:01
Looks like PA, WA, and Colorado all have the same minimum caliber for big game, even Elk.

I hunt with a 6.5 Creedmoor Xanthos this year. 7.5lbs before optics, ammo.

Like you, I want to build up an upper for mule deer next year. I have a 300blk but only trust it within 200yds. The 6.5 Grendel and 6.8SPC are the two I'm considering (maybe both) to play with and have read countless data on both. Sounds like DD dropped their 6.8 for now. Noveske has too (once they sell out of stock on hand). Grendel *seems* to be upticking in popularity and doubles as a long range paper shooter too.

Consider ammo availability. Neither Grendel nor 6.8 are local to me. Online only or a long drive. That's a drawback.

As for bolt gun vs semi-auto. I prefer the latter. If you can hit your target and keep it lightweight it's has great ergonomics for carrying all day and in the ready position. I don't plan to return to a bolt gun anytime soon.

Thompson
1 December 2016, 21:24
The same sources are also telling me that it is very likely that they will allow deer hunting with semi-auto rifles, but caliber will (rightfully and reasonably IMO) be restricted to .243 and above.
Gooooood. Been wanting to hunt with my M1.

Whereabouts in PA are ya?

rxer311
2 December 2016, 03:19
I am in Lancaster

Former11B
2 December 2016, 07:35
It depends on personal needs. Would you ever want to suppress it? If so, you might look at the 300BLK. Running supers to hunt and subs for fun would be great, and you could use the can for both (unless prohibited by law). The 6.8SPC is also a deer hammer, and I'm all about suppressing EVERYTHING! So even if it's running supersonic rounds 100% of the time...nothing wrong with a can on it.


I know this doesn't fit within your small frame specification, but I would personally build an AR-10. But it fits my needs: I handload for .308 already and I would like to keep my stable to a minimum of calibers.

For me, I've got no issue hunting whitetail with .223 (since it isn't outlawed) and every deer I've shot with my 64gr PowerPoints traveling ≈ 2900fps has dropped them like a rock...never had one run. I know this isn't a debate on ethics or morality on the subject, so I don't mean to de-rail the thread.

rxer311
3 December 2016, 18:42
So I have been back and forth about what I want to go with and I finally figured out my decision.

1. I am going to re-barrel one of my ARs to a 300 BLK. My reasoning is as follows. When talking with my father in law tonight he told me the longest distance he ever took a deer with in PA was at 100 yards and that was with open sights offhand, so he obviously could have taken longer shots with is scoped rifles if the chance has arisen. I think a 16" 300 blk would get me out to 150 yds with a 25/150 yd zero.

2. I am going to start a build on a large frame AR. Probably go .308, but I may also try to go 6.5 creedmoor after I read up on the round a bit.

I think this option is the best. Converting to a 300 blk will be a cheap and easy swap. Since anything can happen and deer hunting may still not be approved, I think 300 blk gives me the most versatility. Ammo is plentiful around here as I can even find plinking ammo at Wally world.

I will need something to keep me busy over the next year so a good AR-10 build is going to be this year's project. If I do end up doing some hunting, a large frame AR should be able to get me most anything in North America as far as I can tell.

alamo5000
3 December 2016, 18:53
So I have been back and forth about what I want to go with and I finally figured out my decision.

1. I am going to re-barrel one of my ARs to a 300 BLK. My reasoning is as follows. When talking with my father in law tonight he told me the longest distance he ever took a deer with in PA was at 100 yards and that was with open sights offhand, so he obviously could have taken longer shots with is scoped rifles if the chance has arisen. I think a 16" 300 blk would get me out to 150 yds with a 25/150 yd zero.

2. I am going to start a build on a large frame AR. Probably go .308, but I may also try to go 6.5 creedmoor after I read up on the round a bit.

I think this option is the best. Converting to a 300 blk will be a cheap and easy swap. Since anything can happen and deer hunting may still not be approved, I think 300 blk gives me the most versatility. Ammo is plentiful around here as I can even find plinking ammo at Wally world.

I will need something to keep me busy over the next year so a good AR-10 build is going to be this year's project. If I do end up doing some hunting, a large frame AR should be able to get me most anything in North America as far as I can tell.

If you follow through with the 300 BLK I think your choice of actual bullets will be important. There are a number of good options that I think would be good for hunting medium size game (IE deer). I recall several discussions with Molon about how velocity effects terminal ballistics. People were asking about which bullets work best in SBR's... but I think a lot of the same principles would apply.

I would ask around or google about clocked velocities in your barrel length of choice and then go from there. I would imagine a .30 cal bullet out of that platform would easily take a deer provided you build the right load and bullet choice to get the job done.

alamo5000
3 December 2016, 19:00
I do know from a number of pig hunters that they do not recommend subsonic rounds on pigs. Some do it but others don't like it. I am sure it would work on bambi's big brother but you might want to take those discussions about which rounds are effective into consideration. With that particular round picking something that has good terminal ballistics at 100-200 yards would be very important if it were me doing it.

fledge
3 December 2016, 21:12
Going 300blk sounds like a good decision. Some googling will put you on what hunters like best for different applications. Factory new plinking ammo can be found for .50/round. Reman at .40/round.

The AR10 will be a new education and you'll have more choices for a greater variety of hunting/shooting when you are done.

BoilerUp
3 December 2016, 23:13
The Barnes 110 grain TAC-TX is the only round I'd take deer hunting in 300 BLK.