Eotech

[rxer311]

When discussing Eotech sights, what are your thoughts?

I used to own 2 Eotech sights (a 512 and a 516) and I got rid of them after the recent controversy. I switched over to Meprolight and Aimpoint for my red dot needs, with the Meprolight RDS edging out the Aimpoint for my personal preference of an all around good quality red dot.

I like these options, however, I find myself missing the reticle of the Eotech sights. I have terrible astigmatism in my dominant eye, and for some reason the 1 MOA circle dot reticle does not distort like a single dot does. I am not sure about the reason, however, the reticle of the Eotech just worked for me. I do think they were over priced in relation to the competition and their business practices are on the shady side, but I have found myself being pull back towards possibly purchasing another one if I find one at a decent price.

My question is whether it is worth it to jump back into Eotech. Are the issues with thermal shift as bad as advertised? When it comes down to it, many of our armed forces units have used Eotech for years, and some units still are until a suitable replacement can be found.

So putting the shady business aside, is the Eotech still a useful sight given the specified limitations laid out by the manufacturer? Is the Sig Romeo 4 M or the holosun a reasonable alternative, or is Eotech still a better quality optic? I know that the brand has lost a tremendous amount of respect that it once had, but is it still a good option for somebody who just happens to really like the reticle?

[gatordev]

I fail to see how, if the Eotech worked for you just fine before you knew there was any problem, why it wouldn't work just the same now. Also, keep in mind that the Aimpoint has thermal shift, as well, and it's not insignificant. Aimpoint just doesn't like to publicize it.

[fledge]

Retracted.

[rxer311]

I fail to see how, if the Eotech worked for you just fine before you knew there was any problem, why it wouldn't work just the same now. Also, keep in mind that the Aimpoint has thermal shift, as well, and it's not insignificant. Aimpoint just doesn't like to publicize it.

Good to know. I was wondering this as well.

[SINNER]

I fail to see how, if the Eotech worked for you just fine before you knew there was any problem, why it wouldn't work just the same now. Also, keep in mind that the Aimpoint has thermal shift, as well, and it's not insignificant. Aimpoint just doesn't like to publicize it.

That statement is misleading. ALL optics exhibit thermal shift. Materials expand and contract based on temps. The problem was Eotech claiming theirs DID NOT exhibit thermal shift.

And I for one had horrible issues with the garbage they sell. Battery compartments failing, blinking during recoil even with the supposed repaired ones, and moisture intrusion on a magnifier. The only two I still own are of the rimfire version on my kids Hotshot's. Even they are garbage that will not mount to a dovetail they are designed for correctly.

I always wondered how they could issue such crap to our armed forces and LEO's.

I have had fantastic luck with all the Aimpoints and consider their cheapest red dots far superior to any Eotech. I am really liking my MRO for the cost though.

[UWone77]

The battery compartment has been an issue for me with a couple of 512's back in the day.

I still run like 3 EXPS's and they work well.

[SINNER]

My XPS-2's were the ones blinking on recoil. Fine on a 5.56 but on a few shotguns and a 45-70 lever gun they would black out each time it was fired or the illumination would go to full brightness. The last time they actually replaced them. Since they were new I sold them.

[Tyrannosaur]

Have you tried the Trijicon TA44, similar reticle with etched glass so it doesn't get distorted from astigmatism
I have a severe astigmatism and these are crisp. I prefer the red reticle, plus no batteries/electronics to fail

[gatordev]

That statement is misleading. ALL optics exhibit thermal shift. Materials expand and contract based on temps. The problem was Eotech claiming theirs DID NOT exhibit thermal shift.

It's not misleading because not all RDS have the same level of issues. Eotechs had some measurably significant shift. Aimpoints also had a measurably significant shift. MROs (which, for the record, I do not own and don't really care to own) had measurably less shift (but as you have pointed out, still had some shift).

I agree, Eotech didn't openly admit the gravity of the shift. But guess what, neither has Aimpoint (and again, FTR, I tend to use Aimpoints, so I'm not picking on them specifically). Meanwhile Trijicon came out and openly admitted there would be some shift on their MRO.

At the end of the day, though, only the end user can determine how much this matters. Based on what I've seen, it matters less than what the average shooter can manage 100y and in.


I always wondered how they could issue such crap to our armed forces and LEO's.



Because you're not fully understanding how .mil requirements work. Eotech met the requirements as tested. Were there flaws? Yep! But they weren't brought out until later. Now the requirement/contract has been modded (ie, now there's acknowledgment of a shift) and it's back to business. Right or wrong, this isn't abnormal within the enterprise. Annoying from the operator's standpoint? Absolutely, but not unheard of.

[Josh S.]

I had a 512 for a few years and had good luck with it but I ended up selling it to get a variable power scope. I've been considering getting another EOTech because I like the reticle, but now I'm not sure what I'm going to go with after having the battery compartment fail on my cousin's 512 while we were coyote hunting a few weeks ago. Kinda left a bad taste in my mouth...

[schambers]

FYIW, I've had an Aimpoint M68 that lost power due to a problem with the battery compartment. Happened at a very inopportune time.

It may be that optic designs where the battery compartments are in-line with recoil impulse are more prone to power failures... At least that's been my personal and observed experience.

I've also seen older Eotechs that have been mounted on machine guns and dropped out of airplanes functioning perfectly, so go figure.

[Eric]

Like many, I have a love/hate relationship with EOTech. I prefer the reticle, but have seen more EOTech failures than any other duty type optic. I did keep an XPS around, just because. If you elect to go EOtech, check it often. It will be interesting to see what happens with the Sig Romeo 4M. The FBI supposedly picked some up, but until there is some feedback from field use who knows.

[Eric]

Have you tried the Trijicon TA44, similar reticle with etched glass so it doesn't get distorted from astigmatism
I have a severe astigmatism and these are crisp. I prefer the red reticle, plus no batteries/electronics to fail
They are nice. The $1K price isn't.

[JGifford]

I dislike the reticle of Eotech. I prefer a single aiming point with illuminated optics.
I also had an Eotech begin de-laminating while sitting in the closet. I think I had 50 rounds on it, and maybe 2 days outside the safe. It went on the shelf in the closet for a year, and when I took it out next time, it was starting to dim in certain areas of the screen. Eotech did at least fix it fast and free, though. Still, it kindof took the "Eotechs only suck online..." thing and made it personal, for me.

(EXPS3-0)

[Tyrannosaur]

They are nice. The $1K price isn't.

I got mine for $700 just gotta search around. The deals are out there.

[Former11B]

I have had issues with Eotechs losing zero between outings. I do not own them anymore

[Default.mp3]

I like these options, however, I find myself missing the reticle of the Eotech sights. I have terrible astigmatism in my dominant eye, and for some reason the 1 MOA circle dot reticle does not distort like a single dot does.What other sights have you tried? My Aimpoint T-1 looks pretty garbage through my eyes (though it is perfectly usable), while my T-2 has a much cleaner dot, as do my RMRs; I use corrective lenses, and have to correct for astigmatism in my left eye. While I did not care for the MRO I looked through at the LGS, the dot seemed to be quite well-defined for me.


It's not misleading because not all RDS have the same level of issues. Eotechs had some measurably significant shift. Aimpoints also had a measurably significant shift. MROs (which, for the record, I do not own and don't really care to own) had measurably less shift (but as you have pointed out, still had some shift).Proof of Aimpoint's measurably significant shift? I'm not saying Aimpoints don't exhibit thermal shift, but I am curious as to your source to make you state the shift is significant. The only testing I've seen was some dude's backyard test, which while better than nothing, is not statistically significant, being a sample of one, on a single model, IIRC.

I'll also note that there have been many critics of EOTech's HWS through the years, even before the thermal shift issue came to light, due to EOTech's perceived shortcomings when it came to reliability and durability. I'll also note that battery life is something to be considered, at least for a home defense weapon.

[fledge]

I'm surprised to see such a range of eotech problems from a small sampling of users. I sent mine back (XPS) during the recall/refund though it didn't give me problems. I've read hours of posts on this and didn't see such a variety of problems.

I'll delete my comment above since it would be misleading for future readers based on the rest of this thread.

[SINNER]

It's not misleading because not all RDS have the same level of issues. Eotechs had some measurably significant shift. Aimpoints also had a measurably significant shift. MROs (which, for the record, I do not own and don't really care to own) had measurably less shift (but as you have pointed out, still had some shift).

I agree, Eotech didn't openly admit the gravity of the shift. But guess what, neither has Aimpoint (and again, FTR, I tend to use Aimpoints, so I'm not picking on them specifically). Meanwhile Trijicon came out and openly admitted there would be some shift on their MRO.

At the end of the day, though, only the end user can determine how much this matters. Based on what I've seen, it matters less than what the average shooter can manage 100y and in.



Because you're not fully understanding how .mil requirements work. Eotech met the requirements as tested. Were there flaws? Yep! But they weren't brought out until later. Now the requirement/contract has been modded (ie, now there's acknowledgment of a shift) and it's back to business. Right or wrong, this isn't abnormal within the enterprise. Annoying from the operator's standpoint? Absolutely, but not unheard of.

You are missing the point of where Eotech went wrong. They themselves are the ones who claimed their optic exhibited no thermal shift. It was a proven in court to be a lie that they knew about yet made no attempts to resolve it other than dropping their claim from the consumer literature.

Aimpoint has never made any such claims regarding thermal shift of their optics. Nor do they need to because anyone with minimal knowledge of thermal expansion coefficient knows that is an impossible claim to make.


Have you tried the Trijicon TA44, similar reticle with etched glass so it doesn't get distorted from astigmatism
I have a severe astigmatism and these are crisp. I prefer the red reticle, plus no batteries/electronics to fail

One of my favorite optics. I bought both of mine lightly used for under $700. One that I've personally had for 9 years is at Trijicon now getting a new trillium pill. For some reason I find I'm more accurate and faster with those than a zero magnification red dot.

[Former11B]

One of my favorite optics. I bought both of mine lightly used for under $700. One that I've personally had for 9 years is at Trijicon now getting a new trillium pill. For some reason I find I'm more accurate and faster with those than a zero magnification red dot.

Not to be too off topic here, because I love my TA11 ACOG but would ultimately like one that's smaller.

What is the cost from Trijicon to replace the tritium inside the optic and how long did yours last?

[Joelski]

You are missing the point of where Eotech went wrong. They themselves are the ones who claimed their optic exhibited no thermal shift. It was a proven in court to be a lie that they knew about yet made no attempts to resolve it other than dropping their claim from the consumer literature.

Aimpoint has never made any such claims regarding thermal shift of their optics. Nor do they need to because anyone with minimal knowledge of thermal expansion coefficient knows that is an impossible claim to make.



One of my favorite optics. I bought both of mine lightly used for under $700. One that I've personally had for 9 years is at Trijicon now getting a new trillium pill. For some reason I find I'm more accurate and faster with those than a zero magnification red dot.

What's the freight on replacement Tritium, if you don't mind my asking? My heartburn with ACOG's is the shelf life of the tritium. Costing one out over ten years and weighting it for ease of use and enjoyment seems to be an expensive rental program. I've heard that it's almost as costly to replace the tritium element as to just toss it and buy a new one. Is the world making a mountain out of a molehill, or should I just cast it to the wind and get it and be happy?

As far as EOTECH is concerned, I don't own one, never have but I think the penance of everybody scooping up their original purchase price for a problem they never experienced is a little heavy handed and if its indeed fixed, they should be allowed back in the game. L3 lost money that would choke most businesses out. I refuse to believe anybody short of a cop storing a rifle in his cruiser in SOCAL/Death Valley ever came close to experiencing this. Delams may be a different story, but if they sucked that bad, they'd have a rep like any other shitty glass maker and they just don't.

[gatordev]

Proof of Aimpoint's measurably significant shift? I'm not saying Aimpoints don't exhibit thermal shift, but I am curious as to your source to make you state the shift is significant. The only testing I've seen was some dude's backyard test, which while better than nothing, is not statistically significant, being a sample of one, on a single model, IIRC.

Very true. But it was a pretty disciplined test that confirmed that Eotech's stuff shifted (which helps everyone on the bandwagon) but also showed similar issues with AP. And didn't AP go after them, which resulted in the takedown of the video? The data is still available via Google (again, I get it is what it is), but I thought that's part of why they took the actual video down.


I'll also note that there have been many critics of EOTech's HWS through the years, even before the thermal shift issue came to light, due to EOTech's perceived shortcomings when it came to reliability and durability. I'll also note that battery life is something to be considered, at least for a home defense weapon.

Again, very true. And let me be clear, I'm not an Eotech fan boy. I own two; one that's on a rifle that I don't really care about shift and the other that used to be on a clone (the optic is now sitting in the safe). For me, the AP wins on so many other fronts that I keep staying with it.


You are missing the point of where Eotech went wrong. They themselves are the ones who claimed their optic exhibited no thermal shift. It was a proven in court to be a lie that they knew about yet made no attempts to resolve it other than dropping their claim from the consumer literature.

That wasn't the point of your initial post though. You questioned why .mil/LE is issued these things. Again, the reason is because they had a spec to meet and they won the contract. It was later discovered that they didn't meet the spec, so the spec was adjusted and they're still issued (as far as I know). This isn't an uncommon thing in the military. Does it make me happy? Of course not, but that's what happens.

Personally, I don't have a need for another Eotech for many reasons, but what you or I have a need for isn't relevant to how the contracting world works.

[SINNER]

Not to be too off topic here, because I love my TA11 ACOG but would ultimately like one that's smaller.

What is the cost from Trijicon to replace the tritium inside the optic and how long did yours last?

You have to send it in for a quote. I've sent 3 in before and 2 were repaired free of charge and 1 was around $500 because I had the reticle changed also.




That wasn't the point of your initial post though. You questioned why .mil/LE is issued these things. Again, the reason is because they had a spec to meet and they won the contract. It was later discovered that they didn't meet the spec, so the spec was adjusted and they're still issued (as far as I know). This isn't an uncommon thing in the military. Does it make me happy? Of course not, but that's what happens.

Personally, I don't have a need for another Eotech for many reasons, but what you or I have a need for isn't relevant to how the contracting world works.


That statement is misleading. ALL optics exhibit thermal shift. Materials expand and contract based on temps. The problem was Eotech claiming theirs DID NOT exhibit thermal shift.

It was literally the first sentence in my post.

And I don't know much about military contracting but I would consider most of their weapon and optic choices very solid.

Eotech has never shown me they deserved the implications of military durability they portrayed.

[Default.mp3]

And I don't know much about military contracting but I would consider most of their weapon and optic choices very solid.The military? The same folks that decided the SERPA should be a standard issue holster? The same folks that decided to issue a second focal plane optic for a sniper rifle (Nightforce NXS 5.5-22x56)? The same folks that created the abortion known as the M26 MASS? That adopted UCP over Multicam, went to war, and then changed their minds only after the war wound down? The military gets some solid gear... but they also get some decided really shitty gear, too.

[gatordev]

I was referring to this comment.


I always wondered how they could issue such crap to our armed forces and LEO's.




Eotech has never shown me they deserved the implications of military durability they portrayed.

We have lots of gear that breaks regularly that have been built to spec. Durability isn't always the end result, even if it was supposed to be in the spec. Obviously that's certainly not a good reason for a civilian to buy it.

[Joelski]

The phenomenon of the internet blowing things out of proportion is solidly in play here. I am positive that for some, the issues noted have a potential to impact life safety; the rest stand firmly on the same reason for what amounts to range optics. I am equally positive there's a ton of guys that used the 65 MOA circle that would kill to have their EOTECHs back over any other close range sight on the market. It's niche is CQB, not MOA. I'm hoping to add an EXPS 3.2 after the tinsel is all cleaned up.

I am sorely bitter I didn't get to try out a HWS for years and years for free, so don't be butthurt by my comments. [:D]