AR Layouts

[alamo5000]

I am not a military guy so a lot of the lingo that gets thrown around (acronyms etc) sometimes go over my head (or I end up googling them). People who are into making clones of military rifles are famous/notorious for using the terminology. Does anyone know where I can find a list of modern military designated rifles? My idea is to study out how various rifles are set up.

So basically if someone posts up "M16A2" I get lost unless I google it. If you have or know of a resource or two please post it up. The intent of me learning about that isn't to know the names so much as it is to learn about their set up choices.

Going off of that, my question expands on that concept. This is really the stuff I am after. The military (or law enforcement) basically designs rifles with various set ups and barrel lengths all for all types of unique purposes.

For example the "MK18 CQBR" is a 10.3 inch barrel SBR. It's purpose as I understand it is for very close quarters combat. Examples would be say a bunch of SEALs were going to storm a cargo ship or an oil platform. Its built so that they can climb up and down and go through narrow hallways or whatever. The selection of the weapon is purpose built for it's mission.

Another example if you're on a LEO response team doing hostage rescue for example you might be well served with a precision sniper type set up with a magnified optic. If some homicidal maniac is holding a hostage the ability to observe and if needed to take a precise shot to the noggin would be highly useful.

That's just two examples. I am curious to learn where other set ups and where other barrel lengths excel.

Where does an 11.5", a 12.5", or a 14.5" excel? How are these lengths deployed by LEO or military operations? Obviously there is more to it than just barrel length... the choice of optic or iron sites is also a big deal.

Any examples you know of for mission specific rifles please post them up.

[UWone77]

On the LE side of things, mission specific is... what's the cheapest gun the department can field that's decent? Rarely is there much more than the bottom line. Specialty units like SWAT may have a slightly bigger budget, but in my experience SWAT commanders and their trigger pullers rarely know much about their gear, even if they are very proficient at using said gear.

[alamo5000]

On the LE side of things, mission specific is... what's the cheapest gun the department can field that's decent? Rarely is there much more than the bottom line. Specialty units like SWAT may have a slightly bigger budget, but in my experience SWAT commanders and their trigger pullers rarely know much about their gear, even if they are very proficient at using said gear.

I know a bunch of cops and I have found that either A) they are pretty proficient and using a firearm, B) they qualify once a year but only have one because they are supposed to have one.

Most are obviously familiar but very few are truly 'gun guys'. Many are expert typists. [BD]

I guess the whole point of me asking this stuff is to try and figure out new builds. Do I want an 11.5" SBR? What about a 12.5"? What about a 14.5"?

Yes to all of the above. But I want to get a better idea of how they are used and in what situations so that I can have a better idea of what I am doing in picking out parts as well as in shooting the thing. My leap into the SBR world was done carefully and thoughtfully, and now I shoot that gun more than any other thing I own.

With what I have now... a precision AR...and a 10.5 SBR...Those are both entirely different spectrums of use. One never comes off of the bipod, the other has never seen a bipod and never will.

All the stuff in the middle I am still trying to get a better idea about real world application.

I don't want to be that guy with a 24" heavy bull barrel with a laser, iron sites, and a flashlight on his AR.

I like to learn new things. I want to educate myself. I might just be weird but it adds to the enjoyment level of shooting when I am more in tune with my stuff.

Yeah, I could probably just put together a bunch of random stuff to make a noise maker...or I could learn and build guns that make some logical sense to someone.

[BoilerUp]

Frankly, most of the ARs deployed by the military are either M16A2/A4 configuration or M4 carbines. Beyond that, you have relatively small numbers of CQB, SPR, and DMR weapons for special uses. The HK416 is pretty much an "exotic" in military terms.

I presume you've exhausted Wikipedia already, then?

M16: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#M16A2
M4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine
CQBR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Quarters_Battle_Receiver
SPR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_12_Special_Purpose_Rifle
DMR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
M110: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

Sounds like you are really most interested in the SBR options. While CQB system uses a 10.3 barrel, I think the industry has since figured out that an extra inch of barrel provides an overall better trade-off between ballistics and handling. An 11.5" or 12.5" SBR doesn't serve a different purpose than a 10.3" SBR, it's just that some would rather take improved ballistics over 1 or 2 inches of length reduction. A 14.5" carbine serves the same purpose as 16" carbine. The only reason we all have 16" carbines is because 1.5" of length isn't worth the hassle for NFA.

What you should really be asking yourself is "Why don't I have an AR chambered in 6.8 SPC?" :)

[Joelski]

The civilian side came up with the longer SBR conundrum due to improved efficiency of combustion of rifle powders and in-flight ballistics neither of which influence the mission of the CQBR. It reduces the niche application for Joe gun dood. "Cop" doesn't inherently equal gun savvy any more or less than "GI". An Armorer that welds suppressors to barrels to save a department $200 per rifle should ideally refuse, or resign, but they gotta eat too, which brings us back to UWONE's assertion that administration is evil: true statement.

PS: If things were being done right instead of cheap, the Honeybadger and MASADA ACR would be real things.

[alamo5000]

Frankly, most of the ARs deployed by the military are either M16A2/A4 configuration or M4 carbines. Beyond that, you have relatively small numbers of CQB, SPR, and DMR weapons for special uses. The HK416 is pretty much an "exotic" in military terms.

I presume you've exhausted Wikipedia already, then?

M16: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#M16A2
M4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_carbine
CQBR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Quarters_Battle_Receiver
SPR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_12_Special_Purpose_Rifle
DMR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
M110: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M110_Semi-Automatic_Sniper_System

Sounds like you are really most interested in the SBR options. While CQB system uses a 10.3 barrel, I think the industry has since figured out that an extra inch of barrel provides an overall better trade-off between ballistics and handling. An 11.5" or 12.5" SBR doesn't serve a different purpose than a 10.3" SBR, it's just that some would rather take improved ballistics over 1 or 2 inches of length reduction. A 14.5" carbine serves the same purpose as 16" carbine. The only reason we all have 16" carbines is because 1.5" of length isn't worth the hassle for NFA.

What you should really be asking yourself is "Why don't I have an AR chambered in 6.8 SPC?" :)

I read a lot on Wikipedia but honestly I didn't know where to start at. I think the military hires full time acronym writers. LOL! I think I should maybe start at the beginning and see how things evolved from there [BD]

Basically I got through some of them but not others but I'm not really just dying to know acronyms. Remembering all those names and designations are sort of like memorizing a periodic chart.

I am interested in SBR options for sure because damnit the one I have is every bit as fun to shoot as having a good suppressor.

Really and truly the barrel length is one thing but the choice of optics and sights and that stuff is just as--if not more important.

The options are frickin' endless. I have a several concepts in my head that may eventually play out. I might just go ahead an SBR the other lower that I already have. Don't really know yet. Or I could just build out a few uppers and take it from there. In the end though I want to think through my complete layout before I start forking out money.

For example I could do a suppressed 12.5 SBR with an illuminator on it. Swap over my 1-4x and put that on there and include a rail mounted NV monocular in front of it. (They make one that fits up perfectly with the scope I already have--I played with it at a gun show once). Have that bad boy shooting 77gr Noslers and it would be a hog slaying machine. A precision SBR of that nature could be pretty cool.

The idea would be part precision rifle for ranges 100-200 yards out, but to also be suppressed and to have the ability to own the night, while at the same time not have an overly long bulky gun that I could take into the brush.

Basically I want to be very specific about what I am doing before I just start putting things together. The above example is just one idea that could reasonably be done.

[alamo5000]

The civilian side came up with the longer SBR conundrum due to improved efficiency of combustion of rifle powders and in-flight ballistics neither of which influence the mission of the CQBR. It reduces the niche application for Joe gun dood. "Cop" doesn't inherently equal gun savvy any more or less than "GI". An Armorer that welds suppressors to barrels to save a department $200 per rifle should ideally refuse, or resign, but they gotta eat too, which brings us back to UWONE's assertion that administration is evil: true statement.

PS: If things were being done right instead of cheap, the Honeybadger and MASADA ACR would be real things.

I am obviously concerned with cost (to some degree). I don't want to spend stupid money but especially on something that doesn't make sense, but at the same time if you want to play you have to pay. At first I wasn't sold on all that terminal ballistics stuff but then after reading up on some stuff Molon put up my tune has changed in a big way. The cartridge and bullets and all that stuff matters.

[Thompson]

Basically I want to be very specific about what I am doing before I just start putting things together. The above example is just one idea that could reasonably be done.


I am obviously concerned with cost (to some degree). I don't want to spend stupid money but especially on something that doesn't make sense, but at the same time if you want to play you have to pay. At first I wasn't sold on all that terminal ballistics stuff but then after reading up on some stuff Molon put up my tune has changed in a big way. The cartridge and bullets and all that stuff matters.
To me, it sounds like you should determine what you want in a build before going off to try to replicate something.

Let's be honest though - do you really need an M4 SOPMOD? Do you really need a DBAL/PEQ-15 + NODs for HD/SD? Or would an SBR with a light work?

I get having a clone, just for the sake of having a clone. But the afore mentioned seems a little unrealistic to one's needs, no?

Buttttt - you'll be fine. It's not like you'll be needing to do PCI/PCCs before heading out to the range ... just be sure to regularly PMCS your rifles [BD]

[alamo5000]

To me, it sounds like you should determine what you want in a build before going off to try to replicate something.

Let's be honest though - do you really need an M4 SOPMOD? Do you really need a DBAL/PEQ-15 + NODs for HD/SD? Or would an SBR with a light work?

I get having a clone, just for the sake of having a clone. But the afore mentioned seems a little unrealistic to one's needs, no?

Buttttt - you'll be fine. It's not like you'll be needing to do PCI/PCCs before heading out to the range ... just be sure to regularly PMCS your rifles [BD]

Can someone translate what he said into English please? :confused:

As for my wants... I am not at all trying to replicate anything. I was just going to try and get ideas about 'mission specific' setups and I figured that was a good place to start. Or maybe not. [BD]

I have an SBR with a light on it now. It works fantastic but it's not ideal for pig hunting for a variety of reasons except in certain situations.

I mentioned the 'idea' (at this point that's all it is) above because 1) I already have an SBR lower that I can use. 2) I already have a fantastic 5.56 can. 3) I already have the scope I would/could use for that (it's NV compatible etc etc).

Realistically I could buy an upper, barrel, handguard, and muzzle device and after that all I would really need would be the illuminator and monocular. In other words it's not out of the realm of possibilities. It would be one hell of a cool zombie apocalypse gun for sure.

I have other ideas too...but none of them are to be 'clones' of anything.

[Axlnut]

For example I could do a suppressed 12.5 SBR with an illuminator on it. Swap over my 1-4x and put that on there and include a rail mounted NV monocular in front of it. (They make one that fits up perfectly with the scope I already have--I played with it at a gun show once). Have that bad boy shooting 77gr Noslers and it would be a hog slaying machine. A precision SBR of that nature could be pretty cool.




That is a compromise rifle, trying to be all things to all uses, and it would be awful. Heavy, bulky, so many levers and buttons and batteries...

100-200 yds, I would just use a red dot. I also doubt I'd build in 5.56 if that was truly my purpose for the gun.

I'm with Thompson here, I get that your curious about Mil rifles and their loadouts, but understand that they (down to optics) are as much about institutional momentum and stupidity as they are about the best choices for the mission set.

You need to set out a clear goal, and from the rest of that post it sounds like -short, quick, hog gun that could be used for SD/HD, shot suppressed, and be good in the brush.

You just described a Marlin 336.

Definitely take some time to examine your own needs, look at the individual part, caliber, off-the-shelf options, etc, then build. It won't likely be a clone to be tailor fit to what YOU want to do with it. Then, if you want a clone, build one :-)

[alamo5000]

That is a compromise rifle, trying to be all things to all uses, and it would be awful. Heavy, bulky, so many levers and buttons and batteries...

You need to set out a clear goal,


and from the rest of that post it sounds like -short, quick, hog gun that could be used for SD/HD, shot suppressed, and be good in the brush.

Definitely take some time to examine your own needs, look at the individual part, caliber, off-the-shelf options, etc, then build. It won't likely be a clone to be tailor fit to what YOU want to do with it. Then, if you want a clone, build one :-)

You're getting closer to my mindset here... to think through everything before I go buy a bunch of stuff. It might not be the best set up and hence the feedback is very much appreciated. Measure twice, cut once. Before I buy NV or thermal or anything like that I am going to find someone that has it or sells it so I can try before I buy.

That said, the hog gun could just as easily be a 14.5" or a 16" gun. It could be a .308 even.

I have ideas for other things too but it's all just rolling around in my head. Whether or not they are good ideas or not is a different story.

The main thing is I want my next gun to have a mission and an idea behind it. I have a bipod gun and I have a 10.5 SBR with a 1x dot on it, but whatever I wind up doing I want to branch out and do something different. Definitely it won't be a clone. It will be tailor fit for me.

[UWone77]

When in doubt, I just get all... :o

[Thompson]

I was just going to try and get ideas about 'mission specific' setups and I figured that was a good place to start. Or maybe not. [BD]
Ahhhhhhhhhh - but wait. Don't forget, these "mission specific setups" you speak of are going to be very very very different than what you're going to be needing. If you want to build a rifle - tune it to your specific needs - not someone elses. Cause, next thing you know, you'll end up with an AN/PEQ-15 with an ACH-mounted AN/PEQ-20 ... with a 37mm flare launcher ... and a Gripod.

Though - from what you've been saying - it seems like one lower, with multiple uppers may fit your bill.


When in doubt, I just get all... :o
Wish I had your sort of budget ...

[alamo5000]

When in doubt, I just get all... :o

Let's hope I have a good year or two in the stock market and then I can follow your lead. [BD]

I do have several ideas. I want one gun that is straight up irons.

I would also like to give that new Fostech trigger a go as well. That would be bad ass.

Then I need night vision.... and if I am doing that why not get some thermal while I am at it?

It's only money right? But I would be able to throw one hell of a party that's for sure!

[alamo5000]

Ahhhhhhhhhh - but wait. Don't forget, these "mission specific setups" you speak of are going to be very very very different than what you're going to be needing. If you want to build a rifle - tune it to your specific needs - not someone elses.

I'm just looking for inspiration to get the ball rolling. It will never be the exact same, but how and what you put in needs to be purpose driven. Once you get a well thought out gun it (to me) is just that much more fun to shoot and that much more valuable to me.

For all the talk of custom cerakote, grips, stipples, paint jobs, etc etc I want that stuff too, but this is along the same vein only different. It's utility not just cosmetic.

[Joelski]

I am obviously concerned with cost (to some degree). I don't want to spend stupid money but especially on something that doesn't make sense, but at the same time if you want to play you have to pay. At first I wasn't sold on all that terminal ballistics stuff but then after reading up on some stuff Molon put up my tune has changed in a big way. The cartridge and bullets and all that stuff matters.

There are 4 phases to ballistics and they all matter, but some more, or less than others depending on the application.

[Joelski]

Wish I had your sort of budget ...

No shit, right? Or his key to the evidence locker! [:D]

[BoilerUp]

You should take a serious look at the AR15 Performance 12.5" 6.8 SPC barrel. Load up some 90 - 110 gr bonded or 110 gr TAC-TX bullets, throw on a can, and you'll be in business for hogs with accuracy and terminal performance at ranges that you wouldn't expect from an SBR.

Unfortunately, the barrel is out of stock for a few more months, but I know I'll be buying one as soon as they are available again. I have the barrel in 16" (it's my deer rifle) and it's fantastic.

[alamo5000]

You should take a serious look at the AR15 Performance 12.5" 6.8 SPC barrel. Load up some 90 - 110 gr bonded or 110 gr TAC-TX bullets, throw on a can, and you'll be in business for hogs with accuracy and terminal performance at ranges that you wouldn't expect from an SBR.

Unfortunately, the barrel is out of stock for a few more months, but I know I'll be buying one as soon as they are available again. I have the barrel in 16" (it's my deer rifle) and it's fantastic.

I am down with that for sure. I need to buy another can though... which that is a given. I am going to buy at least a couple more at some point. That truly would give me a lot more options.

I really need to win the lottery though. In the mean time I have to prioritize what I get, or rather what order I get them in. I guess having a budget is sort of a good thing? Well then again no, it's not.