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View Full Version : Why the HPA is a false flag - Get ready to get angry



Stickman
10 March 2017, 01:28
The Hearing Protection Act (HPA) has been leaped upon by every wannabe internet firearm celebrity in 2017, and there is certainly a lot of people who take this as a "rally round the flag" moment. I don't think there is much doubt that as a feel good measure, the HPA is awesome. Cans/ Suppressors/ Silencers are the forbidden fruit of the firearm world for most people, probably even more so than SBRs (Short Barreled Rifles meaning anything less than a 16" barrel). The lusty desire to harness your inner John Wick while battling the forces of darkness can't be anything other than a desire every man should have.... right?

The truth about cans is a little different than reality. Cans make a weapon considerably more nose heavy, considerably more dirty, considerably longer, and considerably less reliable. All of this while for the vast majority of calibers, not actually providing a "hearing safe" level of protection. The cold hard truth about cans is that the glamour just isn't quite there after you really start to use them. Don't get me wrong, they are fun, kill flash, reduce recoil, reduce muzzle rise, and do help with the overall noise, but none of that negates the above issues.

Let us get to the false flag part, which is the crux of the matter. The BATF is a heavily flawed agency. Any agency which is allowed to interpret the law and create their own version of things on an as needed basis is flawed. Wearing a badge for a couple decades leaves me with a very black and white view, an action is either against the law, or it is not. Your Law Enforcement Agencies (LEA) don't get to issue a legal opinion that changes an actual law. The strength and "meat" of a law is in how it is written. If a law doesn't stand on its own merit, it is rewritten, dissolved, or all too commonly additional laws are simply written in addition to it. What does not happen is for a LEA or Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) or supervisor to simply decide to change the law to fit their needs.

In criminal law we all learn the federal government has less authority compared to the power of the states to enact criminal laws. If the states have more power, yet it is not allowable at a state level to make arbitrary changes in definition and actions of criminal law, how is the BATF/ ATF allowed to make rulings which go against and make vast sweeping changes? When we look at these considerations, let us look no farther than a ruling which makes a muzzle brake a suppressor and therefore illegal (Remember Sig a couple years ago). How about the ever famous pistol brace, which has gone back and forth from legal, to illegal, even though there is no law actually covering the topic (think about Sig and some others on this one as well). How did we ever go from smoke grenades being legal as a nondestructive marking item, to unacceptable in the last few years? Have you forgotten about ammunition like M855 suddenly being illegal, then changed after an outcry from the public (we don't see that often).

Something to consider is not only the arbitrary changes in legality which we see in the ATF rulings, but the obscene acceptance of this in taking place. Please remember, this is NOT a court of law making a ruling, it is a LEA making a ruling outside of law which is then used for enforcement. Allowance of such actions has resulted in acceptance of said actions. With the sweep of a pen, what current items do you own which are no longer permissible? The hollow handle for my jack extension could be used for a suppressor, will that be legal tomorrow? Can it "readily be converted"? Will your AR15 be in an unallowable configuration because it has the "wrong" firing pin, or maybe it has an engraving marked "auto" even though it isn't real or functional?

I would humbly submit that the needed changes are not those which would make a change in suppressors. The changes which needed to be made are clearly the cleaning house of ATF with the same enthusiast powers given to the feds when they swept into LA and other cities for "oversight". Arbitrary enforcement and changes in the law via department rulings violate the second, fourth, fifth, and even tenth amendment. Using our first amendment rights to petition the Government for a redress of grievances, there should be a demand for clear and concise application of the law, not waving determinations which wave in the wind under definitions such as amplified, clarified, declared obsolete, modified, revoked, superseded, and supplemented. Who gave the final word to ATF to override or alter the law as it is written? Where is the civilian oversight?

Our demand should be for the law as dictated in the second amendment, and since no other constitutional amendment requires a punitive enforcement arm of the federal government, the restriction of ATF action until such time as it can be rendered effective and equitable.

Feel free to comment and share this.

Uffdaphil
10 March 2017, 05:21
Well said Stick. On the macro level, other empowered arbitrary federal regulatory agencies churn out defacto law at a rate that makes the BATF look downright conservative. Unfortunately their power exists in the first place to give cover to elected lawmakers of every stripe. Given that half the country cheers the partison ends of the unfettered bureaucrat, it's going to take an awful lot of heat to pressure Congress to stop the unelected from making policy.

Hopefully the current pitchfork and torch attitude of the electorate will grow and intimidate the careerists and inspire the reformers to root out the unconstitutional faceless oppression. I'm not completely pessimistic which is an improvement from 2012.

Pyzik
10 March 2017, 07:19
1000% agree. I'm really not a good speaker or writer so I'm not going to pretend to be and my reply won't be so eloquent or well spoken as yours. [BD]

After actually getting to play with some suppressors, some really aren't that glamorous. Shooting an AK with a suppressor actually makes the gun LESS fun to shoot and still not hearing safe.

The phase "ban the ATF" isn't just an internet manta to me. I truly believe the ultimate goal is to, at a minimum strip the power from the agency and much of it's funding (along with MANY of the other alphabet agencies).
They are not a branch of the legislative process and should not be expressing opinions, clarifications or interpretations.

Having said that, I do think we might be more successful getting our rights returned the same way they were taken, one chip at a time. Death by a thousand cuts.
I would LOVE to see broad and sweeping change. And maybe, just maybe this is the administration to do it. I just don't see it happening.

We as gun owners need to come together and fight this. That is one of our biggest problems and I think it's hard for us because typically gun owners are the type of Americans who aren't outspoken, collective thinking and socially open. We're typically less social, more private and really do want to "live and let live". This makes us quiet majority that appears as a minority. When really it's a LOUD minority that is influencing our laws and is stripping our rights.

I'm glad to be reminded to have guys like you (and UW) on our side (freedom loving writers, officers, countrymen).

GOST
10 March 2017, 08:40
I'd be happier with ObamaCare repealed than the HPA passed. Nothing against suppressors but I like loud guns. I would be a lot more interested if a tax stamp would let civilians own newly manufactured full auto guns, then I could get a Glock 18. Even more interested if the ATF was dissolved.

But I doubt much will change. To many people desiring security. Security from having to get a job to pay for health insurance. Security from your neighbors having better guns. Security from being told which bathroom to use. To many people have bought into that the government will take care of you, and they're voters.

How about we take Stickman's logo and the pic of a woman off bathroom doors, and replace it with a pic of a wiener and a pic of a snatch? That way bathrooms are no longer specific to what you identify as, but are for what body part you have. This will provide security for those who sit to pee from sitting on a peed on toilet seat.

We'll probably see the ATF dissolved when they start selling unpasteurized milk in grocery stores again.

alamo5000
10 March 2017, 09:17
I agree 100% with Stick. The reality of getting that stuff done is actually a really big deal. But that said there is a case to be made that 'who are they to randomly make up laws?'

They can literally provide an arbitrary 'opinion' on a subject and your ass can go to jail for it.

This kind of bullshit though will easily get lost in the supposed 'other things' the ATF is supposed to do. The more we chip away at their bullshit though the better.

If I had my way the change would be more drastic but then again I'm not Kim Jung Anybody.

FortTom
10 March 2017, 09:52
Stickman's comments are well thought out, and on mark. Actually there are many layers to it, though he stays on point. It actually took me a couple of readings to comprehend every thing that he alluded too. I think part of the issue of the alphabet agencies, basically undermining the constitution, whereas our elected representatives make laws, and amend them as needed, has even a lower underbelly, than Stickman points out. The whole system is broken. Example, the current POTUS is in the proposing executive orders to force other branches to enforce laws that are already on the books, and are being taunted by mayors and city managers, by declaring they will not enforce those laws. If such chaos is allowed throughout the nation, of course the ATF, IRS, INS etc., etc. are going to go rogue, as they have been for the last 8 years or more. If the ATF knows their actions can run rampant, then the underlying political bent of it's executive management level will prevail through it's actions. Recently, the IRS being weaponized and decide which laws to enforce, ignore, or "interpret" as they see fit, is a perfect example. Why isn't Lois Lerner in jail? It all starts with our elected officials who have neither the desire, or balls to put a foot down on agencies that are arrogantly out of control. In summary, I propose that we can't repair the problems Stickman pointed out, with the ATF and other agencies doing the same until American voters clean the cesspool they thrive in, and force the hands of our elected officials. Until then, we just get to suck on it and in my case, simmer in anger.

FT

UWone77
11 March 2017, 13:35
I'm not saying I have any insider info on this (I don't)

BUT it wouldn't surprise me if many of the suppressor manufacturers are quietly against the HPA. Why would I think this? Because suppressors are one of the last items in the industry with high margins. The HPA would allow anyone to start manufacturing suppressors which would drive down prices in the long term and profits (In the short term, there would be not a single suppressor on the shevles for sale for a year). There would also now be a secondary market for suppressors, so instead of virtually everyone having to buy new suppressors, they could buy someone's used one very easily. This also cuts into the bottom line.

Just my 2 cents.

alamo5000
11 March 2017, 14:15
I'm not saying I have any insider info on this (I don't)

BUT it wouldn't surprise me if many of the suppressor manufacturers are quietly against the HPA. Why would I think this? Because suppressors are one of the last items in the industry with high margins. The HPA would allow anyone to start manufacturing suppressors which would drive down prices in the long term and profits (In the short term, there would be not a single suppressor on the shevles for sale for a year). There would also now be a secondary market for suppressors, so instead of virtually everyone having to buy new suppressors, they could buy someone's used one very easily. This also cuts into the bottom line.

Just my 2 cents.

Interesting take.

Being from the business world if passed it would definitely shake up the market for sure.

I don't know that it would hurt business as much as it would force a new way of thinking into the industry.

Right now they are all relatively low volume but high margin. If there is HPA though the model will have to go towards more volume and market share.

Whatever systems they have in place for manufacturing would have to reflect the changes.

I would think more than anything it would lead to more simply made products.

Things like the Optimus with all the moving parts would be out of production and simple caliber specific stuff would be in fashion.

UWone77
11 March 2017, 18:44
Like I said, I don't have any facts to back it up... but what other industry as virtually NO Used/Secondary Market? Everyone getting into the suppressor game has to buy a new one.

This market is killing margins. You can't sustain a business making 10-15 points.

BoilerUp
11 March 2017, 19:17
You can't sustain a business making 10-15 points.

Sure you can. Lots of businesses do that. The only reason to accept less than that is if it is very low risk.

https://ycharts.com/companies/ORCL/profit_margin

UWone77
11 March 2017, 20:33
Sure you can. Lots of businesses do that. The only reason to accept less than that is if it is very low risk.

https://ycharts.com/companies/ORCL/profit_margin

That chart didn't support your claim.

I've run several businesses in the past. 10-15 points on product, you will go under.

ETA: I think you're confusing profit margin vs. margin on individual product. I should have clarified in my original post.

Stone
11 March 2017, 20:58
Good all around post. The ATF in general needs to have the plug pulled on it, absolute waste of tax payers money. Hopefully it will be on Trumps hit list.

"The truth about cans is a little different than reality. Cans make a weapon considerably more nose heavy, considerably more dirty, considerably longer, and considerably less reliable. All of this while for the vast majority of calibers, not actually providing a "hearing safe" level of protection. The cold hard truth about cans is that the glamour just isn't quite there after you really start to use them."

That's how I have felt about suppressors all along. As soon as you make up your mind to buy one you hit the point of diminishing returns.

BoilerUp
11 March 2017, 21:07
That chart didn't support your claim.

I've run several businesses in the past. 10-15 points on product, you will go under.

ETA: I think you're confusing profit margin vs. margin on individual product. I should have clarified in my original post.

Ah, I think I read your statement the opposite way you intended. I see what you were saying now.

Former11B
15 March 2017, 05:11
Can I copy (and attribute) this post?


Ah, re-read the last statement. Just wanted to be sure ;)


And sometimes we are our own worst enemy. How many people wrote to the ATF regarding Sig Braces and legality as it pertained to their own application? "Can I put it on my AK/Shotgun/Hi Power/etc and be legal?" And by ASKING the ATF to weigh in on it.....the ATF doesn't just make a case-by-case decision; they issue sweeping opinion letters (that people take as law because no one wants to be the court case martyr). With the full weight of the FedGov on their side, the ATF can cower any citizen just because the citizen doesn't have untapped reserves of legal support at their beck and call. And the sad thing is....the taxes paid by the citizen would be used to fund their own prosecution. It's a mess.

Aberration79
15 March 2017, 15:19
The NFA is established by law. The ATF is established to enforce those, and other established laws. I am not sure how it's a false flag to pass law to repeal parts of other laws? I don't think the author argued it was a false flag at all, and possibly doesn't understand the term. Even IF we were to clean house at the ATF, that changes nothing with regards to suppressors. And while I don't agree with the NFA at all, the Sig Brace was bound to have problems just like the others because while witty, They were clearly intended to circumvent the law by claiming they were designed for a use other than what everyone buys them for. Has anyone actually tried to use a Sig Brace or Shockwave as intended? It's the most retarded thing ever. I get why it was done. Just like I don't believe for a second people are actually making solvent traps.

Sure we should demand the 2nd Amendment as is. That doesn't mean we should give up on things that will actually work in the short term. Because given a lot of court rulings, how exactly do we affect that demand?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Former11B
15 March 2017, 17:14
The NFA is established by law. The ATF is established to enforce those, and other established laws. I am not sure how it's a false flag to pass law to repeal parts of other laws? I don't think the author argued it was a false flag at all, and possibly doesn't understand the term. Even IF we were to clean house at the ATF, that changes nothing with regards to suppressors. And while I don't agree with the NFA at all, the Sig Brace was bound to have problems just like the others because while witty, They were clearly intended to circumvent the law by claiming they were designed for a use other than what everyone buys them for. Has anyone actually tried to use a Sig Brace or Shockwave as intended? It's the most retarded thing ever. I get why it was done. Just like I don't believe for a second people are actually making solvent traps.

Sure we should demand the 2nd Amendment as is. That doesn't mean we should give up on things that will actually work in the short term. Because given a lot of court rulings, how exactly do we affect that demand?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The Sig brace was designed for handicapped folks who needed help supporting the rifle one handed. Anyone can buy and use it because they cannot say "Only cripples need apply!"

If you search for the initial ARFCOM thread ( I believe it's there), the designer was working with a VA prosthetics expert when building it