Project Reject

[Stickman]

Originally, I posted this on M4c, but I thought it was worth posting here as well.

This idea came about after I got to thinking about returned barrels. Companies that offer an accuracy guarantee are stuck at the hands of the installer and trigger puller. I'm certainly not above thinking bad barrels come off the machines, but I still wonder what the real issue is with many of these barrels. Buyers remorse? Poor shooter? Low quality ammunition? Improper scope or optic mount? Low quality installation? A receiver that sucks in the barrel extension and wobbles like a drunken donkey?

Here is the barrel we will be dealing with. While it is a SS match barrel, that is all the info I have on it. I won't say who the company is who has these made, or who the maker is at this point. I have already stated we know machines put out bad barrels sometimes for a variety of reasons. The more important issue is how well the seller stands behind their product.

From a first look, we can see the barrel is obviously used and has been fired. Black marks near the gas port, and a layer of grunge are in the barrel extension. HOWEVER, as we look closer, we can start to see more interesting things. Do you think the barrel extension index pin left the manufacturer that way?

2958

2959

[Stickman]

This block will encompass what we built up, and how we built the upper....

The first thing to figure out once the barrel decision has been made, is to determine what parts are used for the rest of the build. This becomes much more of an issue when we want to eliminate build and component issues to determine overall accuracy. Below is the parts layout.

The upper receiver we decided on is one from Cross Machine and Tool. We had a few options to chose from sitting over here in our parts bins, but chose Cross Machine and Tool because Jeff Cross likes to keep the receiver to barrel extension index tight. If you have ever put a barrel extension into a receiver and it dropped in easily, or worse, had some wobble once inserted, you got a low quality part. It is true that the barrel nut provides compression, but only in one direction (realistically speaking), and only to a certain degree.

The rail is also from Cross Machine and Tool, this was chosen because it had just showed up in the mail, and is a rail we have used before, and is of known good quality. There are a lot of other parts which could have been used which are also high quality, this is just how this selection went.

The Geissele charging handle was selected because there was a bag of them sitting next to the work bench (thanks to a buddy who finally mailed them).

A Lantac USA gas block was used because they provide a nice fit and aren't loose on barrels. The first gas block chosen is shown in the below picture, was unmarked for mfg name, and was a horrific fit. It now resides in the garbage.

2960

We used Aeroshell 33MS Grease MIL-G-21164D around the outside of the barrel extension, the inside of the receiver, and on the receiver threads. While people can argue against the use of grease, we find there are too many reasons to use it, in addition to the military and armorer requirements.

2961

We also used the above grease inside the threads of the barrel nut. In the below picture you can see the assembly method of the rail, barrel and upper receiver (the barrel is not shown to keep the pic cleaner). The barrel is inserted into the receiver, the barrel nut is tightened down. Tightened then taken off, and tightened again 3 times. The reason for this is new threads will compress a bit and mate to each other when this is done. It is often overlooked, but a lengthy conversation with John Noveske explained it in great detail, and not doing this was a fire-able offense when John ran the shop.

Once the barrel nut is in place, the rail slides over, and the anti-rotation tabs lock in place. Each side of the lower section of the rail has locking pieces along with two screws. One locking section on each side, and tighten the screws into place locking them to the rail. If you have read this far, it is novice level easy.

2962

Here you can see the tool provided with the Cross Machine and Tool rail which makes installation of the barrel nut simplistic. You do not need to time the barrel nut, which allows you to torque it down as much or as little as your person preferences allow.

2963

Once the barrel nut is in place, install your gas tube and gas block.

2964

[Stone]

Do you have any more input from the end user? Why was it returned?

[Stickman]

Do you have any more input from the end user? Why was it returned?

I don't have any idea what the issue was other than "accuracy" written on the barrel.

[Stickman]

What we have built up and the whats and how of getting it ready to fire.

We decided to use a Wilson Combat 3 prong flash suppressor. We did throw a couple shims behind it, and tightened it down by hand. No extra pressure from a crush washer to possibly offset groups, then again, we have no idea how the barrel was treated before we received it, so it may be a moot point.

2967


We then chose a lower, and in this case the decision was pretty easy. We already have a lower which we use for testing, and it happens to be a Cross Machine and Tool. Fit between the receivers is nice and snug. The glass up top is from Vortex, and their 3-18 Razor HD Gen II is what we try to use when we do ammunition and weapon testing. The mount is from Geissele because it fits incredibly well on 1913 rails, and doesn't mark up or crush receivers and items we are working with.

2968
2969

[Calico Jack]

These results should be interesting. I am leaning towards more shooter error than machining error.

[cjd3]

This is a great thread. The literal build up is fantastic. looking forward to the result.

[fledge]

Is this the build that shot the clover leaf you posted on IG?

[din]

Gross, that barrel has pubes.

[Stickman]

A minor update. We took Project Reject out today and plugged it in at 30 yards. At this distance, the idea was to see how groups were with the dirty barrel, and see if we could get the scope on paper. After finding out where we were hitting, we fired from the first magazine which was filled with unknown 55 grain hp ammo. Some of it was pretty dirty, and some was bright and shiny. No point in wasting time by checking headstamps and weighing each round, we fired it as it went into the magazine loaded out of one of our generic ammo cans.

The groups were as shown below. Again, this is from 30 YARDS, add in to this, I was not on my game. Nothing felt quite right behind the trigger, and while I am not making excuses, I want to make sure we are blunt and honest about how things go with this project. I don't think being "on my game" would have made much of a difference with these groups. The ammo was assorted, so there wasn't much expectation things would group super tight.

At this point, all we could think of was multiplying this group times 3, and that the barrel certainly wasn't pretending to be 1 MOA, or even anything close.

2981
2982


Next we loaded up a magazine of 55 grain Gorilla Ammunition. The results were much different. We have used this ammunition before and found it to group very well, but there was a large difference between this ammo and the previous mag. As mentioned above, this was not a great shooting day, and most of the times I pulled the trigger with these groups, it felt like I was shanking a round, but the group was still decent, even though it wasn't from 100 yards.

2983

[Pyzik]

Looking forward to this. Great read so far. I've not used grease. That is something I'll be grabbing going forward.
Also, never put much thought into gasblock fit-ness.

Interested to see what you come out with at 100 yards.

Glad you posted this here as I likely wouldn't have ever seen it over on M4c.

[Former11B]

I grease my barrel extensions also. I have read that corrosion is possible between different metals (and 416R is susceptible even if the upper is anodized), and it also makes removal easier in the event you decide to change things up.


Stick: What other types of ammo are you going to try? Factory match ammo and/or handloads?

Thanks for posting this.

[UWone77]

I grease my barrel extensions also. I have read that corrosion is possible between different metals (and 416R is susceptible even if the upper is anodized), and it also makes removal easier in the event you decide to change things up.


Stick: What other types of ammo are you going to try? Factory match ammo and/or handloads?

Thanks for posting this.

I always grease my extensions because the grease makes it generally easier to install into the upper (as I find stainless barrels are especially tight in a lot of uppers) and it makes it generally easier to uninstall later if you have to.

I haven't read that corrosion is prevalent but I don't doubt that's possible.

[din]

I use Loctite C5-A on mine. Irazgunz recommends it, and I figure he's built at least a couple more ARs than I have so I tend to respect his advice more than most.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

I use aeroshell 33mm grease I got from umbrella corp years ago. Still have plenty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Former11B]

I use aeroshell 33mm grease I got from umbrella corp years ago. Still have plenty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, I have a tube that I got from somewhere for the purpose....just can't remember where. A little goes a long way

[UWone77]

I can already see why this won't run. Stick is using a gas tube that's too short. Way to go ! [:D]

[Former11B]

I can already see why this won't run. Stick is using a gas tube that's too short. Way to go ! [:D]

Some people are more accurate with a single shot [BD]

[Joelski]

Some people are more accurate with a single shot [BD]

I propose a nick change from Stickman to Ol' Gas Face.

[:D]

[Stickman]

Sorry for slacking, we should be able to get to some testing at distance pretty soon. This project isn't abandoned!

[Pyzik]

Sorry for slacking, we should be able to get to some testing at distance pretty soon. This project isn't abandoned!

Am looking forward to this.

[Stickman]

Minor update, the below is 5 rounds from 100 yards using 69 grain ammunition. I had a difficult time initially believing two stacked on top of each other, but it isn't the first time I've seen it. Shooting with 55 grain (also Gorilla Ammunition match), the group was slightly larger. I did fire other groups which met with similar results, but I had issues with wind and back splash taking down the target. It was one of those days where I really should have thrown up actual target stands, but was lazy and paid the price.

However, lazy or not, we are still looking at a filthy barrel pulling .99" groups, and while I seriously doubt I am shooting to the mechanical ability of the barrel, it doesn't change the barrel is meeting the magic 1" at 100 goal. While I am horribly tempted to super clean the barrel, that really isn't the purpose of this post. The idea was to see how the barrel shot in the condition it was returned. My thought is that the barrel as turned in, is the worst case scenario for how it shoots.

We are going to shoot again for groups and see how things go, but at this point I feel pretty confident saying the barrel is of good quality, and a decent shooter. The next update will be with actual target stands and (hopefully) no excuses. :-)


3066

[Former11B]

Good shooting.

Factory loaded ammo?

[Stickman]

Good shooting.

Factory loaded ammo?

All factory ammo.

[Stickman]

With 20 rounds fired in four, 5 round groups, and an average MOA of .724, I think the results speak for themselves. Even with the fliers which were both called at time of pulling the trigger, the barrel is good to go.


3081

[Stickman]

I have a few more barrels I am going to do this with which were also considered "reject" barrels. This one here is one of the better barrels I've shot when you figure group sizes. 3/4 MOA is impressive, and to touch a 1/2 MOA for me personally is better than I can recall in a very long time.

[Cotton68spc]

I think I need a reject barrell awesome post will be staying tuned


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SINNER]

I've always wondered how a barrel manufacturer can guarantee accuracy. I wish I had a buck every time I took a rifle from someone claiming it was junk and shot an acceptable group first time. Seems like 99.9% of the time it would be consumer error. Either assembly or ability.

[GOST]

I've always wondered how a barrel manufacturer can guarantee accuracy. I wish I had a buck every time I took a rifle from someone claiming it was junk and shot an acceptable group first time. Seems like 99.9% of the time it would be consumer error. Either assembly or ability.
Probably the reason I've ever read a John Noveske interview where he gave accuracy expectations for his barrels.

[JGifford]

I've always wondered how a barrel manufacturer can guarantee accuracy. I wish I had a buck every time I took a rifle from someone claiming it was junk and shot an acceptable group first time. Seems like 99.9% of the time it would be consumer error. Either assembly or ability.

It's calculated risk. They will eat the cost of "X" number of barrels per year, at the gain of selling "X" more product at "X" margin per year, as a result of their guarantee. It's like the membership I bought last week for Paul Mitchell Cosmetology. I get 1 year of my hair being cut and beard trimmed by students (who admittedly do a damn good job!) for $50. That's right. $50 for a year of hair and beard cut/trims, as often as I want. They sell these because likely, people will get 1-2 haircuts and then move/find another barber/whatever, and ultimately, it's a "win" for the school, but for a few people, like me, it's a killer deal and worth a mint. I still tip $10 per haircut like normal, but compared with Sport Clips, getting a haircut 2x per month (24 per year, at a cost of $30 including tip, per), I am saving $430/year.

It all depends on how you cut it, when it comes to "money back" and "bulk" sale/guarantees.

[556BlackRifle]

Great thread Stick. I'm curious how many of these barrels y'all have?

[alamo5000]

Great thread here. I have been reading with great interest. I would venture to say that the vast majority of time people don't realize that their choice of ammo makes a huge difference. I have seen people buy match grade bull barrels and then pull out boxes of steel case Tula ammo. Within 5 minutes they were bitching about how their barrel sucked.

It's not saying bad barrels don't exist but the rate of ignorance among some shooters is pretty high.

[Pyzik]

Great thread here. I have been reading with great interest. I would venture to say that the vast majority of time people don't realize that their choice of ammo makes a huge difference. I have seen people buy match grade bull barrels and then pull out boxes of steel case Tula ammo. Within 5 minutes they were bitching about how their barrel sucked.

It's not saying bad barrels don't exist but the rate of ignorance among some shooters is pretty high.

I was very surprised (and happy) that the White Oak SPR barrel I had was putting under 2 MOA with ball ammo. Never did try match ammo before swapping things around. Bummed. I wish I would have.

[alamo5000]

I was very surprised (and happy) that the White Oak SPR barrel I had was putting under 2 MOA with ball ammo. Never did try match ammo before swapping things around. Bummed. I wish I would have.

It's a rabbit hole man. Seriously! You'll have a crap load of reloading equipment in no time. [:D]

That said I obviously like that discipline of shooting. I haven't been able to shoot much lately because of various things. Sometimes it's nice to go blast away and get minute of man but at other times it's also nice to make a dime size hole at 100 yards. Other times I like to stretch the legs and bang steel at far distances.

Precision is a game of nerds though. A lot of people don't appreciate the soup that needs to happen to get these sub MOA or better groups to happen.