G-MAGS - The German P-MAG

[Army Chief]

You're thinking of ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations), though I don't believe there was any actual "team up," which is why the G-MAG is reverse-engineered, vice made in Germany to original Magpul specifications (i.e. under license).

I have not really found that there is a substantial AR market in Germany, so much as great enthusiasm on the part of the few who do aspire to own these arms. The change in German law that resulted in such things as the semi-automatic StG-44 has opened the window somewhat, but ther average German still has a long way to go to get an AR added to his Waffenbesitzkarte. Few hunters have an active interest in military-style arms, and most sport-shooters are still doing well to graduate beyond .22s.

AC

[TheGunner]

AC,

yes there is a large AR market over here.
And it is quiet easy to get a licence for an AR if you can get a licence for any other handgun. And they do.
Yes you are right, the basic hunter will not buy a AR or any other mil-style rifle. But I don´t even know a sport-shooter who owns a .22

We have 2 major problems here.

1st - the only AR´s we can get are SD, OA and HK.

2nd - we don´t get any parts cause they all come from the US. And they have a ban like you know cause we could equip the Taliban with stuff from Brownells.

So making the G-Mag was a good idea.
MagPul can´t get there Mags out but there is a large market for AR-Mags.

Cheers,

Gunner

[Charlie-2-6]

You're thinking of ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations), though I don't believe there was any actual "team up," which is why the G-MAG is reverse-engineered, vice made in Germany to original Magpul specifications (i.e. under license).

I have not really found that there is a substantial AR market in Germany, so much as great enthusiasm on the part of the few who do aspire to own these arms. The change in German law that resulted in such things as the semi-automatic StG-44 has opened the window somewhat, but ther average German still has a long way to go to get an AR added to his Waffenbesitzkarte. Few hunters have an active interest in military-style arms, and most sport-shooters are still doing well to graduate beyond .22s.

AC

Hey AC, given your knowledge of German legislation, can I assume that you're stationed somewhere in Germany? If OPSEC, no problem then.

But back to the topic on hand: G-Mags and ARs.
Quite a number of my fellow DSR shooters also compete in IPSC rifle and from what I hear from them, the AR is king. Ofcourse then we're not only talking about German owners, but also my Dutch and more Nordic neighbours.
Like Gunner mentioned, it's almost impossible to order something as simple as a flashhider or compensator at e.g. Brownells (because of ITAR and other US regulations).
I can only applaud companies like Magpul who are willing to license their P-Mags to European companies.
You're correct in that few hunters have added an AR to their WBK. To me that has more to do with (European) culture and the etiquette around hunting than the actual practicallity of hunting with an AR. Many if not most hunters consider it not done even unethical to go hunting with a semi-auto rifle like an AR (as opposed to the US). Even semi-auto smootbores are frowned upon. All this from firsthand experience (my nextdoor neighbour is an avid hunter).
For regular sportshooters the new German gunlegislation allowing the purchase of military style rifles like the AR came as gift from God. It's only too bad that for the moment we're limited to expensive Oberland Arms or HK M223 ARs. Good thing there's still the more affordable Sabre Defense.
You'd be amazed how many AR owners I personally know that are almost screaming for affordable 9mm conversion sets, parts etc. The big success of the AR-15 compared to other AR type rifles is the vast array of aftermarket products. Given the current Euro-USD exchange rate we'd be in for a real feast, if only the US Government would ease a bit on the export regulations. I'm sure that many US vendors, manufactures etc would do some nice business.
But once again I'm digressing. Next on my agenda is to get a/some G-Mags and torture test them and ofcourse return here with my comments.

[Army Chief]

Not looking to split hairs, gents, but I've been in Germany for the past nine years, possess a WBK, am an active hunter with a valid Jagdschein and have close contacts within the Polizei hierarchy, so my vantage point is fairly recent and geographically-relevant.

From the American perspective, there isn't anything "easy" about getting a license to own a firearm in Germany. Spending a year as a member of a shooting club will net you limited ownership privileges; that's true. Owning an AR is certainly possible once you have jumped through the hoops, but my point is that very few Germans (in relation to the general population) have met these requirements, and even within that number, those with an interest in ARs represent a fairly small sub-set.

Now, from the German perspective, you might make the case that there is a "large" AR market, but from an American perspective, that simply isn't the case. I'm willing to concede the German view, but even so, the reason that you're limited to SD, OA and HK has as much to do with the changes that are required to make them incompatible with military pattern receivers as it does with anything else. Other vendors, notably Smith & Wesson, with their long-standing presence in the German market, COULD introduce an AR pattern rifle, but it makes little sense from a business standpoint since the market is so limited, volume-wise.

In the US, virtually every AR in existence is compatible with military spec uppers/lowers and the like, and Brownell's catalog reflects this. Aside from the obvious ITAR restrictions, an active import/export parts operation would still be stymied by the technical differences that are unique to this market.

I certainly agree that the G-MAG was/is a good idea, and that -- again, from the German perspective -- there is a decent market here, but let's be honest: by any conventional standard of measurement in this business, it isn't what I would call "large."

AC

[Venom]

AC, I agree in most parts. but whattechnical differences are you exactly talking about? I think every ( except auto-parts) part made in the USA will fit on a european/German AR15/XR15 ( lets keep that bastard m223 out of the game)

[Army Chief]

The leading AR in Germany is unquestionably manufactured by Oberland Arms, and if you take a close look at an OA-15, you will find that there are several deliberate variances in the tolerances. Some of these are quite subtle, and would completely escape your notice unless you were swapping components with an American AR.

One offbeat example: the OA aluminum trigger guard that met with some success in US market with Buffer Technologies actually had to be made in a MILSPEC version because the original OA part was not compatible with our lowers.

It isn't my purpose to go off-track with this discussion -- I just think that we're beginning comparing apples and oranges to some degree. The G-MAG bridges the gap nicely, though just to be clear, it is not a licensed version of the P-MAG; it's just a reverse-engineered clone that Magpul was content to let happen.

AC

[Charlie-2-6]

Hey AC,

perhaps we should split this thread in the original G-Mag post and a US vs European AR thread.

Venom, sorry for hijacking your thread.

That being said, AC thanks for your reply and I see nothing but valid points. Let me give you my (biased) view on the AR market overhere in Europe. Basically that's the whole problem: Europe with it's various countries and legislations as opposed to the US which is one country with (technically) one legislation. I know that it is more complex than that, there is local, state etc legislation & rulings but looking at it from our side its 1 country with 1 law.
Marketwise, us Eurotrash AR owners are just a flea on the back of an elephant, why else would we turn to the US to get all the needed parts etc.

[HaveBlue]

The G-Mag says CERBERUS on it. The same corporation that owns Bushmaster/Remington/DPMS and is who Magpul licensed the Masada to. That would be very uncool if they ripped off the P-MAG.

[Army Chief]

I noticed that, too, and I do follow your logic; however, assuming we're even talking about the right Cerebrus, if the G-MAG were truly a license-produced P-MAG, wouldn't it just be identical (markings aside) to the original?

The word we got originally was that this was a semi-sanctioned reverse-engineering effort, and while I concede there are probably some facts missing here, further speculation seems unlikely to get us very far.

AC

[LMarshall73]

Seeing Cerberus molded onto the mag piqued my curiosity. It appears that the Cerberus that purchased Bushmaster, Remington, and DPMS is indeed the same Cerberus that mismanaged Chrysler into the ground, holds a 51% ownership of GMAC financial, bankrupted Albertson's grocery and Mervyn's retail stores, and, of significance to my line of work, was blocked by the SEC from selling Talecris BioTherapeutics to Australian owned CSL Behring. I don't know how they do it, but Cerberus has been buying and crashing companies and corporations for the past 17 years on 2 continents and are getting rich doing it.

[Venom]

just as a fwiw, maybe it's just a different cerberus company located in Europe?

[LMarshall73]

It's possible, but Cerberus Capital Management has divisions in the UK as well as Germany. Given the previous history between Magpul and Bushmaster, and the fact that Cerberus owns Bushmaster, it could really be that simple. Then again, Cerberus is an investment firm and not a brand, so...

[solsys]

It is not the same Cerberus and the G-mag is a knock off product.

[LMarshall73]

It is not the same Cerberus and the G-mag is a knock off product.

Could you please elaborate? All of my searches for Cerberus GMBH point immediately to Cerberus Capital Management, LP. My interest is merely (morbid) curiosity.

On a side note - I just spent the better part of the last month in the Tidewater area. One of my favorite areas to work in.

[solsys]

I have spoken with two folks at Magpul about this and both have told me that the mags are not manufactured by Cerberus but rather by a small company called Oberlin (Sp?) and that the word "Cerberus" on the magazine means nothing other than a red herring.

They are pretty blatant copies as you can see from the photos provided by Venom.