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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GriffonSec View Post
    Expect an in depth update after this weekend soon. Ran in to quite a few issues this weekend on both New Frontier 45s this weekend.
    Spoiler Alert !!

    Okay ... as stated, we ran a couple of NFA (New Frontier Armory) C45 AR45 Pistols pretty hard this past week. We shot Thursday through Saturday and put better than a thousand rounds through the pair. This consisted of Winchester White Box, Federal small primer ball, Federal large primer ball, Blazer aluminum ball, Remington green box ball, Remington UMC ball, Remington 230g JHP, 200g SWC reloads (two sets – mine with 5.5g W231 and Geoff’s with 5.2g W231), and 230 LRN reloads with 5.3g W231.

    First, the good news. Both have HiperFire EDT Heavy Gunner triggers and there were zero MALF's that were trigger related. These are standard AR15 hammer, trigger, disconnector sets ... not drop in complete assemblies like CMC, Timney, Wilson Combat, etc.

    Both C45’s have a Sig Romeo-5 RDS. We started out verifying the 25 yard zero on each unit, and chronographing each of the loads mentioned above. We also chrono’ed some of the loads against a 5” Les Baer for velocity comparisons.

    After that session, we wanted a trajectory pattern, shots fired at 25 / 50 / 75 / and 100 yards. It is very fortuitous that this decision was made, as a problem was discovered.

    The barrel extensions on both units are not installed perfectly square to the upper receiver.

    On my C45, with a 25 yard zero, it printed 1.5 inches right at 50 yards, 3 inches right at 75 yards, and 6 inches right at 100 yards. These measurements are consistent with MOA which led to the conclusion that the assembly is not “perfect”.

    On the second C45, again with a 25 yard zero, it printed 2 inches right at 50 yards, 4 inches right at 75 yards, and 8 inches right at 100 yards.

    Unfortunately, the second C45 also changed elevation at 50 / 75 / and 100 yards in a manner not consistent with bullet drop … the POI was higher at each of those ranges. This barrel is not only “cocked” left to right, but up and down as well.

    We then re-zeroed the second unit at 50 yards, and the 25 yard POI moved the same amount to the left. This cross-check, while not actually necessary, was to verify our conclusion that the assembly was not correct.

    Both C45 units failed to reliably feed the Remington hollow-point ammunition. This was the only bullet configuration that had FTF issues. In all fairness, GriffonSec’s Colt 9mm AR would not feed 9mm JHP ammunition reliably either. These are not ramped barrels.

    While the only issue, at this time, with my C45 is the improperly installed barrel, the second unit also had other issues. It would not lock the bolt on an empty magazine. As we had purchased various “spares” from NFA, we replaced the bar that toggles the bolt catch. It worked for a few magazines, and then it began to fail as well. That particular unit had also been returned to NFA soon after initial purchase because the ejector would not function properly. It was repaired and returned.

    There is an issue with the ejector in that it will bump the magazine if inserted vigorously. The ejector centers over the left side of the metal liner in a Glock magazine and can produce a very small bend in the back left corner of that liner. The fix is to remove a (very) small amount of the underside of the ejector. We had also purchased spare ejectors.

    I contacted NFA and spoke with their gunsmith. I went over the details of our testing and he agreed with our conclusion, and stated the units should be returned for “repair”.

    I received an email confirmation of my conversation with the NFA gunsmith with an RMA attachment. I will be shipping the upper receiver assembly (sans Romeo) this week.

    I will update this thread when I receive the “repaired” upper. Not sure when I will be able to do the detailed multiple-range testing again. It may not be until the spring shoot at GriffonSec’s.

    At the end of the testing, with both units zeroed at 25 yards, we set up a dueling tree (6 inch plates) and ran some mano a mano competition. Have to say … it was a blast! Both units were accurate – they shot one hole groups at 25 yards (about 1.5 to 2 inches). They will ring steel as fast as you can trigger and move the dot.

    Conclusions, I think the C45 design concept may have a couple of weak areas, but am very disappointed in the assembly of the unit(s). Same issue(s) on two units purchased a couple of months apart is not a good sign in my opinion. Properly assembled and tested, these could be a fun range toy, and with ball ammunition, could be an acceptable HD AR pistol.
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  2. #17
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    Jerry, do you think a barrel with a properly installed extension would fix that problem? Sucks to throw good money after bad, and still have the LRBHO issue. It doesn't appear QC10 has an engineering solution of their own for either issue.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joelski View Post
    Jerry, do you think a barrel with a properly installed extension would fix that problem? Sucks to throw good money after bad, and still have the LRBHO issue. It doesn't appear QC10 has an engineering solution of their own for either issue.
    The NFA gunsmith was aware of the problem. While I don't know what they will do, I see several options open for the repair. a) Replace the barrel if the extension is bad [bad batch of barrels?] b) Install the existing barrel correctly if the upper receive is true [poor quality control on final assembly?] c) Use a milling machine to face the front of the upper receiver so the barrel will install perfectly square [bad batch of upper receivers?].

    Since he knows the problem, it becomes obvious that these two are not the only occurrences. Everything covered under warranty, so money is no object

    I have to believe they will fix the problem(s).
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry R View Post
    The NFA gunsmith was aware of the problem. While I don't know what they will do, I see several options open for the repair. a) Replace the barrel if the extension is bad [bad batch of barrels?] b) Install the existing barrel correctly if the upper receive is true [poor quality control on final assembly?] c) Use a milling machine to face the front of the upper receiver so the barrel will install perfectly square [bad batch of upper receivers?].

    Since he knows the problem, it becomes obvious that these two are not the only occurrences. Everything covered under warranty, so money is no object

    I have to believe they will fix the problem(s).
    It could also be that the pic rail isn't machined true to the bore axis. I've heard of this happening on some AR uppers years ago (I forget who the manufacturer was). If the 'smith is lucky, he just needs to true the receiver face.

  5. #20
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    Did you try other optics or irons on these? The cocked barrel extension seems like a flawed diagnosis to me. The chance of both extensions being off in the same plane by the same amount is practically zero. Extensions have a lot less to do with accuracy than most would believe. The chamber is in the barrel so you would see some odd headspace issues and damaged brass if in fact the extension was off enough to exhibit the shift you describe.

    I’d look hard at the optic used firstly, (I had a poor experience with a Holosun red dot not tracking accurately. Elevation adjustments also caused a RH shift of exactly half of the elevation change. The Sig’s are Holosun’s) and secondly a out of spec upper receiver. As mentioned the pic rail not being square and true to the receiver bore is more likely than both barrel extensions off an identical amount.

  6. #21
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    We did use MBUS irons, Geoff shot irons at 50 after a 25 yard zero, POI off the same as his RDS.

    His unit was not off exactly the same as mine. It was not only a little further off in windage, but elevation varied as well on that one. Once we set the zero, 25 yards first, we did not adjust the red dot, merely fired for group. Then zeroed at 50 and shot at 25 for group.

    Both barrels were accurate, so something is out of square with the axis of the bore. I'm not sure what it is. If their gunsmith is aware of this type of problem, they have seen it before and hopefully can fix it. I would like to not only have it fixed, but I want to know what the issue is.
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  7. #22
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    I'm not quite sure about it being the barrel extension itself but that the barrel is improperly torqued (or not enough), or could be the receiver itself that accepts the extension isn't quite "square" and will need to be lapped, then properly re-tourqed. Agreed, not a common issue, but could be a manufacturing/assembly issue on the company end. For giggles, we did measure the barrel OD to the edges of the rail on the muzzle end. Was off by a few thousandths L-R, but I don't think that's evidence to support our theory at the moment.

    Interesting insight on the Holosun (Sig), I jumped on the bandwagon with one myself for my Kriss SDP and it's hitting POA fine. I'll have to watch mine and see if I get that result as time goes on.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoilerUp View Post
    It could also be that the pic rail isn't machined true to the bore axis. I've heard of this happening on some AR uppers years ago (I forget who the manufacturer was). If the 'smith is lucky, he just needs to true the receiver face.
    ^^ This, that's exactly what I'm thinking.

  9. #24
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    Thanks to all for continuing comments. This is exactly why I did not put this thread in the "Read Only" review section.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry R View Post
    Thanks to all for continuing comments.
    Second that! This is extremely helpful in doing my DD on a "someday" build. You were throwing me off with the NFA reference, I thought Gsec had a select fire PCC. New Frontier isn't exactly a household word, but the billet lower on my SBR is of the highest quality, and was my first encounter with a pinless lower receiver. The selector and takedown pins are captured with cap screws, assuring that nothing takes off flying when you take remove the grip, or end plate. I've never had an issue related to the manufacture of the receiver in terms of tolerance, or fit/finish. They happened to be one of very few manufacturers available at the time to stamp the receivers according to our specs (Via ATF variance form from the ffl that ran the group buy), and in a relatively small quantity (50 IIRC). I remember having to send pics with my form 1 eform because they didn't have a New Frontier lower in 300 BLK on file, not to mention our custom stamping.
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  11. #26
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    They do a ton of OEM manufacturing. As far as my experiences with them goes, they have always been top notch. Their 80’s are some of the best going IMO.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joelski View Post
    ....... I thought Gsec had a select fire PCC. ......
    I Wish!

  13. #28
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    The upper receiver was returned today. My warranty return form was enclosed, and the gunsmith only put two words on it ... "Barrel Replaced".

    I will test the repair as soon as I can.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry R View Post
    The upper receiver was returned today. My warranty return form was enclosed, and the gunsmith only put two words on it ... "Barrel Replaced".

    I will test the repair as soon as I can.
    Been following...any further updates after the return?

  15. #30
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    No, unfortunately I have been unable to do any range work lately. Hope to get it back out soon. Thanks for checking !
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