Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    N. KY
    Posts
    2,676
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Are they kidding me?

    I've been trying to verify that a 1911 Para "Black ops" with the skull and wings on right hand side of slide is rare or not. I have been able to determine it was only produced for one year, then Remington bought PARA and killed the Black Ops line. (they should have killed the shitty R1, and kept the Black Ops IMHO)

    After hours and hours of searching the 'net, I found a "Para"? website that had an active person with a chat tab. I asked this question to the person, sure I had found my answer, and was told this: "When Para was sold to Remington, all records including numbers made, were turned over to the ATF, and cannot and will not be revealed, by law".

    This sounds like a load of bull to me, but, heck, I don't know, stranger things occur, so I guess it could be true.

    Any thoughts, facts, or comments on this? I mean, what could be so "secret" about the number of civilian weapons, sold of a certain model or configurations of a model.

    Thanks,
    FT
    NRA Life Member
    Deplorables Life Member



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Twin Cities
    Posts
    960
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    Sounds like bull to me. Unless there are pending lawsuits and revealing info may help the plaintiffs.
    “What in the world is a moderate interpretation of a constitutional text? Halfway between what it says and what we'd like it to say?" -Antonin Scalia

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    N. KY
    Posts
    2,676
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Uffdaphil View Post
    Sounds like bull to me. Unless there are pending lawsuits and revealing info may help the plaintiffs.
    I never found any information indicating that there were lawsuits or patent infringements or anything of that sort. Just can't believe as much effort as I have put into this, no one has a clue about this. Screw it, I give up, it's a great pistol and I'm going to shoot it anyway, rare or not.

    FT
    NRA Life Member
    Deplorables Life Member



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    13,708
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I mean it's a Para... I'd just use it as a drop gun, or door stop.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    3,883
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Lol

    That does seem shady, unless uffda is on to something.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    N. KY
    Posts
    2,676
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by mustangfreek View Post
    Lol

    That does seem shady, unless uffda is on to something.
    I just can't for the life of me, believe a freaking roll mark could make any difference whatsoever. Except, in a "rarity" scenario. Then, what's the big deal about the number made, of an identical guns, without the roll mark? Going to try the library one more time to see if they have any old "Gun Bibles" or other books that might have that information in it.

    FT
    NRA Life Member
    Deplorables Life Member



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    WA
    Posts
    3,883
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    So is this the double stack model?

    Pics?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    N. KY
    Posts
    2,676
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by mustangfreek View Post
    So is this the double stack model?

    Pics?
    Single 8 + 1 stack.

    FT
    NRA Life Member
    Deplorables Life Member



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Central PA
    Posts
    358
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    Single 8 + 1 stack.

    FT
    Para Black Ops were made in such numbers that for the longest time (hell maybe even now) E-Sarco could barely GIVE the slides away. Like, $60 for complete, laser marked Black Ops slide. The R1 "Enhanced" or whatever is just a Black Ops at this point.

    I too miss Para, not sure where the hate comes from, but I've seen plenty of GI Experts and especially P14 perform like monsters for many years.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    2,773
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    ATF "Going out of business" Section 14.1

    14.1.1 “Records” for purposes of this section. Reference to the term “records” in this chapter refers
    to the acquisition and disposition records required by GCA and NFA regulations, Forms 4473, Forms
    3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers), ATF Forms 3310.11
    (Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report), records of transactions in semiautomatic assault
    weapons, records of importation (ATF Forms 6 and 6A), and law enforcement certification letters. If the
    licensee was granted a variance to use a computerized recordkeeping system, this term also refers to the
    required printout of the all A & D records, as required by the variance approval.215 As required by the
    regulations, these records must be surrendered to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center (OBRC) or
    transferred to any successor of the firearms business within 30 days of the discontinuance of such
    business.
    216 [Handwritten changes add cite “27 C.F.R. § 478.129” but may just be the above referenced
    forms]

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...er-14/download

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    2,365
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    If the ATF has the records, a FOIA request should do the trick

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    N. KY
    Posts
    2,676
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Axlnut View Post
    Para Black Ops were made in such numbers that for the longest time (hell maybe even now) E-Sarco could barely GIVE the slides away. Like, $60 for complete, laser marked Black Ops slide. The R1 "Enhanced" or whatever is just a Black Ops at this point.

    I too miss Para, not sure where the hate comes from, but I've seen plenty of GI Experts and especially P14 perform like monsters for many years.
    I have to disagree that the R1 is just a Black Ops. The Para is a Black Ionized Stainless Steel pistol to begin with. There are many, many quality differences between the R1 "enhanced" and the Black Ops, and if you have the time and the desire to, you can compare them side by side and find out how many differences there is in quality. The folks at Remington wanted to put out a cheap "clone" with a more reasonable price point than the Para Black Ops, to throw out for the masses. Not that my opinion means jack squat to the folks at Remington, but they should have S-$t canned the R1 and continued to produce the Black Ops or offered both to different buyers. I have a Wilson Combat Delta Elite, and I will put the Black Ops side by side, as far as quality is concerned. The WC is a bit "slicker" and has a lot of hand work, but it costs twice as much also. But quality? Naah, not so different IMHO.

    FT
    NRA Life Member
    Deplorables Life Member



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    N. KY
    Posts
    2,676
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    ATF "Going out of business" Section 14.1

    14.1.1 “Records” for purposes of this section. Reference to the term “records” in this chapter refers
    to the acquisition and disposition records required by GCA and NFA regulations, Forms 4473, Forms
    3310.4 (Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers), ATF Forms 3310.11
    (Federal Firearms Licensee Theft/Loss Report), records of transactions in semiautomatic assault
    weapons, records of importation (ATF Forms 6 and 6A), and law enforcement certification letters. If the
    licensee was granted a variance to use a computerized recordkeeping system, this term also refers to the
    required printout of the all A & D records, as required by the variance approval.215 As required by the
    regulations, these records must be surrendered to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center (OBRC) or
    transferred to any successor of the firearms business within 30 days of the discontinuance of such
    business.
    216 [Handwritten changes add cite “27 C.F.R. § 478.129” but may just be the above referenced
    forms]

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...er-14/download
    Wow, my cousin is a lawyer, I'm going to have to have him interpret that for me. Seriously, thanks. I guess that answers my question, "they" weren't kidding me.

    Thanks again for the info. I think I'm going to end my search now. and just shoot the damn thing.
    FT
    P.S. The things are still going (assuming condition, of course) for about what they were new, so I suppose there is still some love for them, out there in the wilderness, warranted or not.
    NRA Life Member
    Deplorables Life Member



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •