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  1. #16
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    I built a P80 a while ago with the Brownells slide and an RM07 Type 2 w/6.5MOA and Silencerco threaded 9mm barrel. Turned out great, no issues at all. I haven't shot it a ton but I agree with the points made so far. It takes a LOT of training to find the dot quickly. I might try a different RDS but the RMR is the benchmark.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    This right here.

    What you make up with accuracy, you lose with speed. Picking up the dot will be an issue. I also found a lot of people initially look for that front sight instead of the dot when they first start shooting with an RMR.

    I still carry a stock, unmodified (except sights) G43 or G19 off-duty.
    http://www.vdmsr.com/2017/06/optic-m...ncepts-in.html

    Original article I wrote and I did another update article about the ACRO which I can pick the dot up on the draw every time.

    http://www.vdmsr.com/2019/04/the-pis...ic-battle.html

    Waiting on an SRO before I do any real comparisons and viability for carry.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    This right here.

    What you make up with accuracy, you lose with speed. Picking up the dot will be an issue. I also found a lot of people initially look for that front sight instead of the dot when they first start shooting with an RMR.

    I still carry a stock, unmodified (except sights) G43 or G19 off-duty.
    Since I have multiple Glocks, I donít plan on carrying it as my daily carry til Iím extremely comfortable with it.

    This isnít something Iíll have up and running next week, but laying the groundwork for whatever I ultimately decide. I want to give it some time and make sure Iím making the right choices, from host to optic

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Former11B View Post
    Since I have multiple Glocks, I donít plan on carrying it as my daily carry til Iím extremely comfortable with it.

    This isnít something Iíll have up and running next week, but laying the groundwork for whatever I ultimately decide. I want to give it some time and make sure Iím making the right choices, from host to optic
    Start with the ACRO and dump the idea of an rmr type optic for reality based application.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Start with the ACRO and dump the idea of an rmr type optic for reality based application.
    I definitely like a few features of the ACRO better, like the enclosed emitter (not becoming obscured by rain/snow/mud etc), battery location, and the concept of acquiring the dot being similar to that of iron sights so a complete retraining of draw and acquisition isnít necessary. Not to say that I wonít devote tons of time and ammo to practice with the ACRO if I go that route but you get what Iím saying. I donít want to retrain my draw and aim for one host when the majority of my handguns remain optic-free.

    I appreciate the wisdom/experience you were kind enough to share. I wonder if the RMR still leads the pack due to cost and time on the market? The $150 difference, while not too significant, is enough to give pause to someone whoís trying to even make their budget work with an RMR or similar optic.

    The flip side of the thought process for me at this stage is this. With all the other pedigreeíd pros out there who continue to use an RMR, part of me wonders how inferior can it be if those ďin the knowĒ continue to use it? Iím not downplaying your experience with the ACRO, not at all, just simply trying to make the best decision I can.

    And I know the argument of function over fashion is one I try to adhere to as much as possible but the RMR is more visually appealing than the additional 1oz of the ACROís design. The size DOES matter as I do plan on carrying this pistol. If carrying it with either optic proves impractical then the other G19s or 43s Iíve got can easily revert to my go-to.

    I appreciate the discussion/learning in this thread

  6. #21
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    Personally, I'd start with the Holosun. The 507C has an Eotech like reticle, so it's waaaaaaaaay faster to pick up the dot. Plus it's cheap enough to get your toes wet into the MRDS arena to see if that's even something you want to entertain.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Former11B View Post
    I definitely like a few features of the ACRO better, like the enclosed emitter (not becoming obscured by rain/snow/mud etc), battery location, and the concept of acquiring the dot being similar to that of iron sights so a complete retraining of draw and acquisition isn’t necessary. Not to say that I won’t devote tons of time and ammo to practice with the ACRO if I go that route but you get what I’m saying. I don’t want to retrain my draw and aim for one host when the majority of my handguns remain optic-free.

    I appreciate the wisdom/experience you were kind enough to share. I wonder if the RMR still leads the pack due to cost and time on the market? The $150 difference, while not too significant, is enough to give pause to someone who’s trying to even make their budget work with an RMR or similar optic.

    The flip side of the thought process for me at this stage is this. With all the other pedigree’d pros out there who continue to use an RMR, part of me wonders how inferior can it be if those “in the know” continue to use it? I’m not downplaying your experience with the ACRO, not at all, just simply trying to make the best decision I can.

    And I know the argument of function over fashion is one I try to adhere to as much as possible but the RMR is more visually appealing than the additional 1oz of the ACRO’s design. The size DOES matter as I do plan on carrying this pistol. If carrying it with either optic proves impractical then the other G19s or 43s I’ve got can easily revert to my go-to.

    I appreciate the discussion/learning in this thread
    Re; pros who use RMR's

    The majority of them don't have real world experience, gaming isn't real world experience, shooting is not shooting, and they have a completely illogical approach to applying an RDS on a pistol, and it's been proven repeatedly by numerous top teams who don't and won't use an RMR, yet they have already adopted the acro in some small applications. The fact that the field is moving away from RMRs and to acro type optics should be a huge lightbulb.

    This is one of those rare situations where the field of "pros" is wrong and in 5 years it'll be very clear.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Re; pros who use RMR's

    The majority of them don't have real world experience, gaming isn't real world experience, shooting is not shooting, and they have a completely illogical approach to applying an RDS on a pistol, and it's been proven repeatedly by numerous top teams who don't and won't use an RMR, yet they have already adopted the acro in some small applications. The fact that the field is moving away from RMRs and to acro type optics should be a huge lightbulb.

    This is one of those rare situations where the field of "pros" is wrong and in 5 years it'll be very clear.
    I do appreciate your input but you are making some incorrect assumptions. Given my background, I donít follow competition shooters (unless we are talking about the annual International Sniper Competition for example) and I donít watch trainers like Taran Tactical. They sure can shred and beat a clock but thatís never been what Iím after. The guys I primarily watch and listen to all have some combat arms background whether in the Infantry, Ranger Regiment, MARSOC, etc.

    The ACRO is the first solid entry into the closed emitter game (the Nano doesnít really count and that Holosun HE509t sits up so high I canít even begin to get on board with it). And if we are talking about whats available in 5 years from now, sure, the evolution of equipment is assured. In the decade I was an infantryman and constantly deploying to the Middle East, just looking at what was ďtip of the spearĒ when I was a boot to what had evolved by the time I got out...Iím sure itís an equal comparison to the MRDS market between now and a decade from now. But I do not agree with the fact that simply because the ACRO has arrived on the scene that everything else has immediately become obsolete and nothing else warrants consideration

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Former11B View Post
    I do appreciate your input but you are making some incorrect assumptions. Given my background, I don’t follow competition shooters (unless we are talking about the annual International Sniper Competition for example) and I don’t watch trainers like Taran Tactical. They sure can shred and beat a clock but that’s never been what I’m after. The guys I primarily watch and listen to all have some combat arms background whether in the Infantry, Ranger Regiment, MARSOC, etc.

    The ACRO is the first solid entry into the closed emitter game (the Nano doesn’t really count and that Holosun HE509t sits up so high I can’t even begin to get on board with it). And if we are talking about whats available in 5 years from now, sure, the evolution of equipment is assured. In the decade I was an infantryman and constantly deploying to the Middle East, just looking at what was “tip of the spear” when I was a boot to what had evolved by the time I got out...I’m sure it’s an equal comparison to the MRDS market between now and a decade from now. But I do not agree with the fact that simply because the ACRO has arrived on the scene that everything else has immediately become obsolete and nothing else warrants consideration
    I wasn't referring to you specifically in my statements I was speaking generally.

    As far as everything being obsolete since the acro showed up. Yes that's exactly what is going to happen. You don't have to believe me, it's going to organically happen as it always has in this industry. There is a specific reason why development continues to find new housing and shapes and it's because of very clear limitations. Will people still use RMR's? Of course, for the same reason people drive old cars instead of buying new ones, it's cheap and delivers sorta kinda the same performance.

    Given what the acro can do, which the rmr and company can't, this isn't even something that's worth debating honestly it's so obvious.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post

    Given what the acro can do, which the rmr and company can't, this isn't even something that's worth debating honestly it's so obvious.
    I haven't had time to do some Googling lately, so I'll ask here:

    - How's the battery life been for you with the ACRO? There was internet noise about poor battery life.

    - Where is the ACRO's dot, height-wise? By that, I mean is it in between a RMR and T-1 as far as where the dot sits above the slide?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    I haven't had time to do some Googling lately, so I'll ask here:

    - How's the battery life been for you with the ACRO? There was internet noise about poor battery life.

    - Where is the ACRO's dot, height-wise? By that, I mean is it in between a RMR and T-1 as far as where the dot sits above the slide?
    I run mine on 7 setting, zero issues working on 2 months now on constant on. Guys were running it at 10 and wanted 6 months run time, that's not how that works. Even on the T1/T2 it doesn't work that way.

    The height is exactly the right level to pick up on the draw stroke. I could do it naturally without any changes in my training. Basically the same way we have all done it, draw to catch the front sight post, except the dot is there with the acro. You'd have to change the way you draw with the rmr/etc in order to do this.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    You'd have to change the way you draw with the rmr/etc in order to do this.
    I might not. That's why I was curious how the height compares. It looks like it might be in between a T1 and a RMR, but wasn't sure. I've definitely see the slow down going back and forth between those two and understand what you're saying.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    I might not. That's why I was curious how the height compares. It looks like it might be in between a T1 and a RMR, but wasn't sure. I've definitely see the slow down going back and forth between those two and understand what you're saying.
    I don't know a single person who has ever picked up an RMR'd gun and was able to instinctively, without any modification in training, been able to pick up dot on draw as fast as they can with standard iron sights. I outlined the reasons behind it in my articles I posted above.

    With the ACRO it's night and day, I pick it up and just looking for the front sight post the dot appears exactly the same place every single time, it's almost like they listened to the customers and did exactly what was needed to be done in order for the RDS to work naturally along with every single persons previous experience with a pistol. This development, in and of itself, makes the RMR type optics which are not able to meet this basic requirement immediately old tech and obsolete. I don't care what any "top instructors" or IG celebs have to say about this, their use is not reflective of real world application and the ACRO shows it immediately upon use.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I don't know a single person who has ever picked up an RMR'd gun and was able to instinctively, without any modification in training, been able to pick up dot on draw as fast as they can with standard iron sights. I outlined the reasons behind it in my articles I posted above.

    With the ACRO it's night and day, I pick it up and just looking for the front sight post the dot appears exactly the same place every single time, it's almost like they listened to the customers and did exactly what was needed to be done in order for the RDS to work naturally along with every single persons previous experience with a pistol. This development, in and of itself, makes the RMR type optics which are not able to meet this basic requirement immediately old tech and obsolete. I don't care what any "top instructors" or IG celebs have to say about this, their use is not reflective of real world application and the ACRO shows it immediately upon use.
    I think we're just talking past one another at this point. All I'm asking is do you know the dot height of the ACRO (from the top of the slide). I'm not arguing presentation or sighting training of the RMR or what other people say about any other optic.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    I think we're just talking past one another at this point. All I'm asking is do you know the dot height of the ACRO (from the top of the slide). I'm not arguing presentation or sighting training of the RMR or what other people say about any other optic.
    Right...

    The answer entirely depends on what kind of slide you use.

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