Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 51
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,854
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0

    Handgun Upgrades

    I am becoming tempted to try out an RDS on my pistol so I am wondering other people's experience with it. Whether that be with just RDS (on pistols) in general or specific things to the product(s) I am considering please share.

    Keep in mind that (for me) this is at a minimum of a $300 'experiment' just to see if I like it or not. Hence I am trying to put some more thought into it before I go all in.

    My carry pistol is a Sig 365XL so it already has an optic cut. Thank goodness I don't have to think about getting it cut etc.

    The first optic that I am considering is the Holosun 507K. From what I gather this optic fits my gun no problem. No conversion plate needed.

    The second one I am considering is the new Trijicon CC model. That's the one that I REALLY want but it's more than twice the cost. The guys at Maple Leaf Firearms confirmed that soon they will have a plate to make that conversion. I am not sure if having the optic slightly higher to the bore will make any difference or not.

    This general overall subject is the main area of discussion that I am asking for.

    That said I do have another angle to throw into the mix.

    For a long time I have wanted a good light for my carry pistol. The new Surefire XSC is definitely my number one choice. They don't have very many holsters yet for my gun/light combo so this is a secondary thing (for now).

    That said how do handgun RDS interact with weapons lights? I know many of the RDS have an auto function so if that is say under my shirt and auto adjusts to think it's night time how quickly will it react to being drawn in the day time (waking up and adjusting both)? I am asking a rather technical question in the context of how something similar (flipping on a weapons light) might impact dot visibility or acquisition.

    Overall though, for those of you that shoot red dot handguns how do you like it and what advice would you give just in general to adapting to a red dot having never used one before? Is there any kind of significant advantage to it in your view?

    All in all if I consider the light, a new holster, and the Trijicon optic, I am well over $1000 bucks in which is a lot more than I paid for the gun to start with...so big picture I am measuring before I cut.
    Last edited by alamo5000; 4 October 2020 at 12:00.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Central Florida - Gulf Side
    Posts
    2,219
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    2
    Wish I could be more help with details on some of your, very good, questions. I put a Leupold DeltaPoint on a Gen-4 Glock 21. I did it pretty much for the same reason you are considering it ... "will I like it?"

    The RDS I'm using does not adjust for daylight or dark, so works reasonably well with a light, the dot does not wash out when set to a medium brightness.

    I have mixed emotions on the pairing.

    The one advantage that I see is that it seems to work very well with gross motor skills for fast acquisition of center-mass shots "from the leather". Accuracy on small targets (third shirt button down) using fine motor skills is taking a lot of practice for me. I like the "two eyes open / look at the target, not the dot" method, as it helps me stay on target. I have, occasionally, won the dueling tree with it; but not as often as with an iron-sighted 1911. Not to disparage the RDS Glock, just more rounds down range with the older platform.

    I guess, would I do it again? Yes. Would I carry it? No, not without a lot more practice.

    Will be following to see the advice from some of the regular users/professionals that carry a setup daily.
    NRA Benefactor Member
    NRA Certified Instructor

    "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on."
    John Wayne - "The Shootist"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    1,752
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I have two handguns with red dots: a Ruger Mark IV with a Vortex Viper and a FN FNX-45 Tactical with a Trijicon RMR. My experience with red dots on pistols is similar to Jerry's. I find i can get on target quickly, but i'm not going to win any bullseye matches with them. The 6 MOA dots aren't great for precision shooting and i find i'm a better shot with irons on other pistols. But i also have done a lot more shooting with the pistols i'm better with. I wear glasses with progressive lenses and it's definitely easier to find the dot and focus on the target than it is trying to get irons lined up in the sweet spot in the focal range of my glasses. All in all, i like shooting pistols with red dots. There's definitely a learning curve, but i'll definitely equip more pistols with red dots in the future.
    "It's time to start slapping people." - George Carlin

    NRA Life Member | SAF Life Member | FPC Member

    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    2,643
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    A RDS isn't going to be a panacea when you first start using it. It will take a bit of practice to get comfortable with it. I initially didn't like a red dot as it took too long to find and cost more money to configure the weapon (both optic and optic cut).

    My initial foray into a RDS was with a T1, which required no smithing to my Glock and I already had the optic. I found the tube to be easier to use and find the dot than a prism system. As I continued to practice with it, I really grew to appreciate the RDS concept. I found I became more accurate with follow up shots (to a point), and not having to find the front sight was much easier on the eyes. Once I became a RDS cripple, I found some reasons to go back to a RMR-type setup and have been spending my shooting time with that the last 6 months or so. One way to learn how to find the dot quicker with a RMR-style is to not look for the dot, but start to find and align the sights. They don't have to be perfect, but as they come into view, so will the dot and you can transition to it.

    I find not only am I more accurate with a dot (be it a 2 MOA or a 3.25 MOA dot), but it also has made me a better shooter in seeing the errors I'm imparting into the gun when shooting. I don't mean the dot twitching around when it's on target. Instead I mean seeing where the dot goes at the trigger press. It helps diagnose errors you're putting into the gun and also helps with "calling shots" an knowing if it went where you think it did...no different with a rifle, but more sensitive. I spent a lot of time on a B8 at 25y using a dot to narrow down why I couldn't break 90 consistently. It was a big help, and a laser training gun wouldn't have shown what I was screwing up.

    As for which one, the Holosun seems to have great reviews. I haven't personally looked through one, but have used an old Docter and regularly use a RMR. The RMR has the one issue of needing to be rezeroed after every battery change, but it's not like you're starting from scratch and it doesn't take that many rounds to rezero it. The Holosun doesn't have that issue.

    One thing I have found with a lot of mini-RDSes is the coating can cause ghosting of the dot when the sun hits the lens from certain angles. I've seen it happen with a Delta Point, where 5 dots appeared on the lens because of how the prism was catching the sun light. The Docter did this as well. The RMR coating eliminates most of this ghosting, so you might get a slight secondary dot, but the primary dot is clearly the one to use when that happens. I haven't been able to see if that happens with the 507. This may not be an issue for you, but at the range I shoot at, one of the primary firing directions is into the sun in the first half of the day, so depending on the time of year, it happens regularly. Another reason I'm happy with the RMR, since this isn't really an issue.

    Sounds like the 507 may be the answer for you for now. Lower cost to entry and it has a RMR foot-print, which everyone knows how to cut in slides.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,854
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post

    I find not only am I more accurate with a dot (be it a 2 MOA or a 3.25 MOA dot), but it also has made me a better shooter in seeing the errors I'm imparting into the gun when shooting. I don't mean the dot twitching around when it's on target. Instead I mean seeing where the dot goes at the trigger press. It helps diagnose errors you're putting into the gun and also helps with "calling shots" an knowing if it went where you think it did...no different with a rifle, but more sensitive.
    --
    Sounds like the 507 may be the answer for you for now. Lower cost to entry and it has a RMR foot-print, which everyone knows how to cut in slides.
    You made a lot of great points there. The first one I quoted I've thought about before. It might help me to self diagnose what's wrong so that I can improve.

    Other things that attract me to it are the two eyes open thing that I have grown to like (a lot) when shooting ARs. Seeing how my carry pistol is primarily for defensive use being situationally aware and being able to pick up the dot faster seems like a win win.

    Another thing (for me) is I don't need to risk milling out my slide only to find that I hate it. My pistol came from the factory optic cut ready so in a worst case scenario I could put my rear sight back on and not have to worry. I also don't have to reconfigure my holster either (like I will when I ultimately get that light I am after). I can pretty much run with it right out of the box.

    The 507K is right about $300 bucks so that's kind of what I am going to have to pony up at first to see if I like running a RDS or not. That said I am pretty sure a 2MOA dot would be enough but who knows. 6MOA seems a bit much but I have zero experience. I know with my rifle RDS I can pick those up just fine and they are definitely not 6MOA.

    I guess at the end of the day at worst I would be out of pocket $300 ish bucks. If I practice with it and come to really like it I can then upgrade.

    As for now pretty much everything is OOS but I don't mind waiting. I am not looking to pay a premium for something like this just to get it 'right now'.

    Who knows... over the next few months if I see one in stock I might splurge buy. The Holosun 507K isn't any slouch from what I've read as well. I'm kind of leaning that way simply because of all the unknowns. Plus the Trijicon is so new there is almost nothing out there yet (even Trijicon hasn't released it's adapter plate to Sig 365XL yet). Basically either way this idea is going to marinate for a while but on the surface it seems like it might be a good deal.

    That said I could possibly find a gun range that will rent me a RDS equipped pistol. One hour with that (regardless of the type or brand) and it will answer a ton of lingering questions.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,070
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Keep in mind that your 2 MOA dots on a carbine are usually at about 3 - 4' of eye relief. What's eye relief on a pistol? 2 feet? I believe that's why 6 MOA is more common in that application.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    15,286
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I'm a huge fan of RDS on handguns. However, for me the learning curve was steep. You have to train yourself to look for that dot. I find I have to cant the gun down slightly. Took probably 3k+ rounds for me to get somewhat competent. The groups however, if that's your thing, will significantly tighten up. I prefer the RMR with the 6.5 MOA dot. I've used and shot the 3.5 MOA version and it's definitely harder to pick up the dot.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    234
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Random thoughts and tidbits from someone who has been shooting exclusively with an RDS on pistols 2015:

    Deltapoint Pro with the triangle may seem great in theory; zero with the tip and use that for precision, and just use the entire triangle when going fast. However, very few people actually seem to like that concept once they try shooting with it.

    You can make a smaller dot appear bigger by cranking up the brightness, causing bloom.

    Larger dot sizes seem to work better with auto-adjustments, as they are more forgiving of lighting conditions, particularly with WMLs.

    Getting faster with first-round-shots with an RDS is simple: practice your draw and get a good index, which can be done dry. Just remember, simple does not mean easy. Once you get the draw down, now you have to work on SHO/WHO index, or positional stuff. You can use the irons as a crutch to get alignment at first, but you will eventually need to let go of that habit, as it will slow you down.

    Learn to accept the wobble of the dot; there is no need for a perfect sight picture for most targets. Obviously, this goes into the same as the reading of your sights, as you would with irons, but many people are freaked out by the wobble and end up either being way too slow as they try to confirm a perfect sight picture or else they mash the trigger upon the dot hitting the part of the target they're aiming for, usually with poor results as they're unable to keep the gun still while doing so (there is nothing inherently wrong with the mashing the trigger, since there are very high level competition shooters that do it... they can just do it without disturbing the sights).

    RDS-specific pistol classes are dumb. The fundamentals remain the same; would you sign up for an RDS-specific rifle class? To be sure, there are tricks and nuances to shooting an RDS handgun, but those can probably be covered in less than a half-hour, rather than being a 2 day class. I have spoken to Steve Fisher about this, one of the first people to offer RDS-specific classes, and he agrees, but continues to put on these classes simply because there is demand and he needs to fill classes.

    I use my RDSes in manual mode always, in order to prevent washout with my WMLs (SureFire X400UHs). This does present some blooming issues when shooting at further distances at night, but it is what it is; I can still easily use it to hit the black on a B-8 at 25 if I needed to under speed, I just won't be confident of punching the X-ring like I would be during the day.

    If need be, you can just use the sight picture through the optic as a crude ghost ring, whether that be for speed or because your RDS went down.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,854
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks for all the responses so far. I am still learning obviously. Your responses have all helped.

    So in general the 6 moa dot would be the one you guys recommend? Keep in mind this is not for shooting bullseye target matches but rather for concealed carry/self defense. I would weigh pros and cons in that context.

    A 6 MOA dot seems huge. At 100 yards that's around 6 inches. At ten yards that however is .6 inches. I don't know about any of you guys, but shooting 1/2 inch groups with a handgun even at 7 yards is difficult to say the least, particularly in a concealed carry context. Basically my point is even though the dot seems 'huge' on paper... it's still more than accurate enough (beyond my capabilities at least). That said if it brings much faster target acquisition to the table as a pro I am all for it.

    I will definitely think of some more questions to ask as I read through the responses and try to digest everything.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    FL
    Posts
    2,643
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    A 6 MOA dot seems huge. At 100 yards that's around 6 inches. At ten yards that however is .6 inches. I don't know about any of you guys, but shooting 1/2 inch groups with a handgun even at 7 yards is difficult to say the least, particularly in a concealed carry context. Basically my point is even though the dot seems 'huge' on paper... it's still more than accurate enough (beyond my capabilities at least). That said if it brings much faster target acquisition to the table as a pro I am all for it.
    It's not necessarily the same as how you're used to looking at a dot though. That's what BoilerUp was getting at. First, disclaimer, I don't have enough experience with bigger dots to weigh in on that decision. But from the math stand point, let's say your target is 33yd away (just to make the math easy...it's close enough to 25y for the example). That 6 MOA dot is now 2". BUT, the dot size itself is smaller because the dot is farther away from your eye. Yes, that 6 MOA dot is still covering a 2" cone, but your eye may perceive it smaller than what a 6 MOA dot would look like on a rifle.

    Again, my experience is strictly range use, but for me and my 2-3 MOA dot, I do what Default.mp3 mentioned and just turn my dot up if I need it "bigger." When I'm doing dedicated warmup B8s just to work fundamentals, then I turn it way down.

    I'll defer to those with more real-world trigger time on how that translates to other uses.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,070
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,854
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    Thanks for the video Boilerup. That was a good one. I watched several of his and a BUNCH from Aaron Cowan as well. I am going to link them below (the three I feel are the most valuable) just in case someone has the same questions in the future the resources will be all in one place hopefully.

    It's important to note that John and Aaron do not agree on dot size. John says he likes the smaller dots and Aaron likes the bigger ones.

    I found another video too (the fourth one) from a different source that is also valuable in my view.

    This video immediately below about the pros and cons... I think that is my main reason for wanting to get into red dots. Heads up, eyes open, threat focused to me is my primary motivation.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,854
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    This video is from a competition shooter I think. I have no idea who he is but the video has valuable information at least for me at the stage I am at.


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    5,854
    Downloads
    2
    Uploads
    0
    This is the one where Aaron says he likes the bigger dots.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Posts
    234
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0
    I will say I don't care particularly for some of Cowan's preferences, particularly his argument about rear sight placement, which to me smacks of catering to the LCD.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •