Lets talk .45's

**JustMatt** · 24 July 2009, 04:34

I have decided to step up to the big boy caliber and sell my .40 XDM. Now my question is about which gun. I have shot a glock 21 and like it enough but I miss my SIG 226 and considering going with a SIG 220. Capacity issues aside (i think we can all agree that more ammo in the gun is better) I was hoping to get some opinions on what is out there in the .45 area. I'm not devoted to polymer or steel frames. Main areas of concern are accuracy and reliability.

**rob_s** · 24 July 2009, 04:36

Concealed carry an issue? Guns like the Glock 21 can be tough to conceal depending on body type and typical attire. On the other hand, I find it easier to conceal a 5" 1911 than a Glock 26.

**Army Chief** · 24 July 2009, 05:34

The "problem" that has emerged in the 1911 game is that we've seen several distinct classes of pistols develop, each according to a particular price point, and each with its own inherent strengths and weaknesses. People tend to invest in one or the other, and then become loyalists without much regard for the larger realities of the market.

In the "basic" category, which I'll define as under $1,000, the pistols with the best reputations are Colt, Springfield, Colt, Kimber, Colt, S&W and Colt. I wouldn't expend a lot of energy looking at other alternatives, even though some may be more worthy than others (i.e. the SIG). At this price point, you will get service grade components, acceptable fit and finish, and some factory-grade tuning. Most serious 1911 pistoleros view these as base guns, and eventually upgrade them over time, which is why I made a subtle hint about going with a Hartford original. Something to think about in this price range is that the fewer bells and whistles you're getting, the better off you probably are. That might sound counter-intuitive, but most of the upgraded/enhanced parts that come on a basic 1911 are going to be discarded at some point anyway, and many require frame modifications that can make custom work more complicated later on, when you really know what you want.

In the "semi-custom" world, you have a higher cost of entry to be sure (usually around $2k), but you're getting a much more finished product. Parts will be "best in class," slide/frame and component fit will be uniformly excellent, the finish details will usually be very, very good and the pistol will be tuned correctly by a competent pistolsmith. This is the minimum standard that a lot of working professionals will recommend, save for those "in between" pistols that started off as one thing but were worked into another by an unusually squared-away unit/department armorer. Recognizeable names in the "semi-custom" category include Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, or Nighthawk. There are others, but I've more or less stopped there intentionally.

If you have a significant amount of money to spend for no particular reason, enjoy museum pieces, don't shoot much, or only intend to buy one 1911 in your life with the intention of seeing your great-grandson treasure it, there are $3k and even $4k offerings from many of these very same shops and smiths. Still, while I'm sure the Bill Wilson Signature pistol is a lovely shooting iron, if I'm going to spend $4k or more, then I'm going to have a custom pistolsmith start with an empty workbench, and build me a masterpiece. I'm thinking a Caspian frame and slide, and someone like Ted Yost or one of his boys. For the price, you'll get everything you got in the semi-custom class and more, much more.

The difference between an excellent 1911 and a truly majestic 1911 isn't so much the components used, or even how the gun is spec'd -- it is how much time it spends on the bench under a master's hand. In the age of CAD, a competent 1911 can be assembled by a factory employee with a basic level of understanding of his/her task; however, the best 1911s are still hand-wrought works of art, and relatively few pistolsmiths posses the skill, patience and care necessary to deliver a pistol that commands -- and truly deserves -- a price tag of several thousand dollars. Some, however, do.

So, where does that leave us? Back at the beginning, probably. If you just want a 1911 to shoot and enjoy, buy a Colt. If you want some nice upgrades, but have the same purposes in mind, buy a Kimber. If you're serious about using the 1911 as a defensive tool, jump up to the semi-custom realm and look at something like a Wilson CQB or Brown/Nighthawk equivalent. I'd stop there, quite honestly, though I suspect that someday I will stop gawking at photos and actually commission a "full house" .45 from one of the greats. Until then, I'm quite content with my Wilsons. :)

AC

**tac40** · 24 July 2009, 06:18

Have you tried the Springfield XD 45? You already shoot the XD 40. If you are a recreational shooter and not considering carrying it on you and already have some knowledge on shooting, perhaps the 1911 should be considered. I carried the Sig P220-45 cal for several yrs, I like the pistol but it was a big gun to lug around off duty. For a fun 45 to shoot, try the Glocks, Springfield XD and HK. Good luck.

**JustMatt** · 24 July 2009, 06:21

Concealed carry is not a big issue. I'm 6'3" and 300lbs so I can conceal a howitzer on my person if I need to. Plus I have a 'murse' I carry in often.
Chief, you gave me alot of info to think about when it comes to 1911's. This is not going to be a museum piece or something I can pull out of the safe and show off to the guys. I want a 'go through hell and come out shooting' gun. She ain't gotta be pretty, just accurate and tough. Thats why I was leaning torwards Glock. My previously owned SIG never failed to fire once in 8 years and thats why I mentioned the 220. I hear/read that 1911 are harder to keep running than the others and thats a concern. Not that I don't keep my weapons cleaned and oiled just that I like to think that in adverse conditions they will function as needed. My budget would be $1k at most.

**Army Chief** · 24 July 2009, 06:26

I'd say the inverse is true: it isn't hard to keep a 1911 running, but it can sometimes be hard to get one that runs as it should out of the box if you were trying to save money on the initial outlay. Short of bad magazines or the odd extractor tension issues, a properly set-up 1911 is actually a lot more reliable than folks have been led to believe. People just run into trouble when they buy an inferior model to begin with, or [shudder] decide to improve things with some good old-fashioned home gunsmithing.

For your purposes, make it a Colt or a Kimber, stay away from aftermarket crap, and enjoy your new .45.

AC

**JustMatt** · 24 July 2009, 13:06

Tac, I don't dislike my XDM but i'm not in love either. I loved my SIG 226 and wish I hadn't sold it but that's water under the bridge. I was leaning towards a Glock 21 but now Chief has me thinking 1911. I have never shot a 1911 so that's probably where I should start but if I can get into a good Kimber or Colt for under/at $1k that might be a option. Guess I got some researching and shooting to do, my local indoor range has a verity of pistols to rent and they might have a 1911 in there somewhere. Good info and lots to consider. Thanks.

**Army Chief** · 24 July 2009, 14:49

I think that I misunderstood to at least some degree in that I thought the premise here was that we were talking about 1911s in particular, when in fact, we were talking about .45s in a more general sense. I still favor the 1911, but I also like the SIG P220 quite a bit -- even though I know that the .45 variants don't have a universally stellar reputation across their production history. I'll leave those distinctions to others, but I carried the P226 once upon a time as as LEO, and I see no reason why the P220 wouldn't inspire the same confidence. I just think that the 1911 has been an enduring baseline for very good reason, and in the right hands, it is still one of the best fighting pistols available -- at any price.

AC

**oregonshooter** · 24 July 2009, 15:36

The XD grip is too long IMO. I won one at last years IDPA State match and tried to replace my G17 for EDC with it, but it was a no go.

I have packed a G21 as an EDC in a Milt Sparks Watchman and it can be concealed as well as the G17 with a good holster (the Alessi PCH is best) but I'd rather have 17 rounds of 9mm for the same weight and thinner profile than 13 of .45 with a G21.

When you start looking at 1911's you are entering another world. I had a custom built Caspian GM model for a few years as my EDC and the weight difference/ammo capacity between it and the G17 made the switch easy after I realized that the caliber (in pistols with modern HP ammo) is of little affect on terminal performance.

If your hands fit the G21 go with it. It is reliable above all others and has the least amount of recoil in any .45 I've shot. When it is all said and done I come back to the Glocks because they are tried and true, and the gun is a tool that needs to work 100% of the time for me with little maintenance or breakage issues and with the Glock price point it is hard not to see how they make the best sense for EDC if they fit your hand/shooting style/concealment needs.

**JLSKIP** · 24 July 2009, 15:51

If all my money weren't tied up elsewhere right now, and I didn't already own this exact model, I would pick this up in a heartbeat.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ht=springfield

Something to be said about a pistol design that hasn't changed much in the span of 100 years.

**oregonshooter** · 24 July 2009, 15:55

Originally Posted by JLSKIP

Something to be said about a pistol design that hasn't changed much in the span of 100 years.

True, but todays 1911's have changed much in 100 years.

nice pistol though and at a good price!

**JustMatt** · 24 July 2009, 18:18

My department's issued sidearm is a Glock 21 so that's another reason why it appeals to me. But as I am a corrections deputy I don't carry on duty every day. So it's kinda a toss up. I do like the way the 21 shoots but I need to get my hands on a good 1911 and a 220 for some comparison shootin.

**oregonshooter** · 24 July 2009, 18:28

If your department encourages (read: not anti CCW) and allow the issue gun to be carried, I'd go that route for sure.

I carried a 1911 on duty as a reserve for a few years because it was my CCW but switched to the G21 for duty for a mounted light option (M6 is a wonderful thing for dirtbag compliance) but to keep continuity I carried the G21 EDC also.

It is doable with proper holster. Without a quality fitting holster the G21 is pretty tough. Much tougher than the thinner versions from Glock.

The Versa Max is another good option for the G21, but the metal band mouth does add bulk and is not as comfy IMO.

Personally I like the Summer Special designs better because the gun is not so low in the waistband and affords a better "combat grip" without interference.

**JustMatt** · 25 July 2009, 03:56

Being in Corrections (that's the important way of saying Jail Guard) my Sheriff frowns on CCW even though by my states governing body (FDLE) I can carry. That being said we (Corrections) don't get issued a personal firearm, we have to draw from the armory whenever we are assigned a armed post.

**rob_s** · 25 July 2009, 04:08

If by FDLE you mean Florida Department of Law Enforcement, why not just get your CCW for the state and remove all doubt? Assuming, of course, you're talking about concealed carry outside of work.

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