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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus Prime View Post
    What I mean by double tap is two rounds on the same target in rapid succession.
    is that a hammer, dedicated pair, or deliberate pair?
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  2. #17
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    I thought hammers where two center mass followed with a head shot?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Optimus Prime View Post
    I thought hammers where two center mass followed with a head shot?
    That's a failure drill. Hammer to the body, single round to the brain.
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  4. #19
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    So much confusion in the shooting world... ha.

  5. #20
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    Great review Jerry. Just gives me an excuse to buy one. (For my son of course, never mind he's only 7 months.)

    If there are problems with double taps, does this also occur with 22lr conversion uppers? I would imagine this being a problem because of the rimmed case and staggered rounds in the mag correct?

    I've debated for awhile whether to buy this, or an AR conversion. The S&W is cheap reliable and fun, whereas with the conversion, I could always swap to a 5.56/6.8 upper when he gets older.

    Damn these decisions!

  6. #21
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    It's not so much an issue with the function, it's just that a .22lr platform has no real recoil, so you can get follow up shots much faster, and that can goof with your muscle memory.

  7. #22
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    We're having an interesting discussion on another forum about pairs, but my belief is that it will be a virtual non-issue of proper technique is maintained, whether pairs (deliberate, dedicated, hammers), NSRs, failure drills, or "shoot 'em to the ground" is your methodology.

    FWIW, the reason I asked what I did is because in many circles the term "double tap" comes across like "clip".
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    We're having an interesting discussion on another forum about pairs, but my belief is that it will be a virtual non-issue of proper technique is maintained, whether pairs (deliberate, dedicated, hammers), NSRs, failure drills, or "shoot 'em to the ground" is your methodology.

    FWIW, the reason I asked what I did is because in many circles the term "double tap" comes across like "clip".

    That's pretty damned funny. Though I've called them mags since I was corrected when young, this is the first time I've heard of an elitist attitude over "double-taps/controlled pairs".

    I've heard instructors call them both, and don't doubt in the least that some people would think like that. Hilarious.

    My dad is a 22yr Army vet with three and a half tours in Vietnam. Much to my chagrin he still calls them clips. I don't doubt in the least his ability to professionally end lives.

    Good stuff Rob!

  9. #24
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    What sounds "elitist" to the ignorant is simply educated professionals that understand terminology and the implications of that understanding.

    This is a perfect example, in fact. If someone understands the difference between deliberate pairs, dedicated pair, and hammers and the details of how to deliver each, and has trained on each, the potential negative impact of training with a reduced recoil firearm like the M&P15-22 is greatly reduced vs. the ignorant guy slamming away with "double taps".

    If one is concerned with this negative impact it strikes me that they would do well to become a student and increase their depth of knowledge.

    Which is why I asked for a definition of "double taps". There isn't one, and that matters.
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  10. #25
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    Elitist to the ignorant huh? Nice.

    If a school/instructor wants to name a technique (firing sequence) fantastic.

    I can guarantee you I can walk over to the SF compound right now, ask the ODA guys what a hammer, deliberate or dedicated pairs are and they'd look at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead. Same way if I walk over to the Polish SF (GROM) compound right now and ask two of my Team guy buddies, they'd probably look at me the same way.

    I guess we're all just ignorant though. Holy crap, and they trust us with guns!? Weird.


  11. #26
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    To get us back on track it has been pointed out to me that there are two pretty obvious areas of concern with the 15-22 when doing serious practice that I had not thought of. One is the charging handle; short, thin, flimsy plastic with a handle that could break off if seriously racked. The other is the lack of a forward assist. I have never used the FA, but GriffonSec is ex army and said that slapping the FA was part of their training regimen when clearing a malfunction.

    Gun show next weekend and I will be looking for a cheap red dot. I have pretty much decided on the AimShot HG-M2. It is a little more expensive than some others, but has an EOTech style reticle and claims to be parallax free. Most of the others either make no claims on parallax, or say "parallax free at 50 yards." If I can't find one at the show, I will eShop for it. I've seen them in the $140 range.
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  12. #27
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    Is the charging handle actually shorter or does it just have a shorter stroke? Could a mil spec one be substituted?

  13. #28
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    The FA is a non-issue in my mind, I know some "serious" shooters think they should have never been added to the design, and the only time I've ever used one was in some really really cold weather and the lube I was using was getting solid enough to prevent the system going into battery one a fresh mag (cycled fine, just a problem from bolt lock)
    Also, on a rim fire a forward assist could be downright dangerous.

    I won't have my 15-22 until Monday, so I can't comment on the charging handle at this time though.

  14. #29
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    I apologize for that rant Jerry and fellow forum members. Rob, I'm only busting your balls.

    I'm still torn as to whether I want the M&P15-22 or a .22lr upper conversion.

    If some of the parts are plastic and prone to breakage, I may have to end up going the conversion route.

    However I've had the aluminum CH on my M4 shear right at the gas tube hole, though I think it would be less prone to breakage than a plastic one. As far as the forward assist, I've always been taught to pull it forward with my finger on my support hand before closing the ejection port door, so the forward assist is a non-issue for me.

  15. #30
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    From the conversation Jerry (my father) and I have had, the charging handle is physically shorter, and a standard cannot be substituted. I did ask if the latch could be replaced with a standard milspec type latch, or tactical latch, and that's when we got into the 'flimsy' part.

    I brought up the forward assist only as it relates to drills, not a necessity. I can only think of a couple of times I've actually had to use it, but it is one of those ingrained steps as I learned it, back in the early 90's, and of course, times have changed in the approach to fighting with this rifle. This obviously went towards the discussion of whether or not it's good trainer. In my mind, outside of weight (a fixable issue with lead weight) and recoil, a 'trainer' should mimic the 'worker'. But that's just me.

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