VFG vs hand stops

**Broad Arrow** · 6 February 2010, 20:46

Anybody switched from VFG to hand stops? Do the hand stops offer better control of the weapon? I am thinking of purchasing the new Gear Sector hand stops and its recommended to run them in pairs. I was wondering if a VFG + side mounted hand stop will give you the same control as a pair of hand stops? Thanks.

**Stickman** · 6 February 2010, 22:17

Originally Posted by Broad Arrow

Anybody switched from VFG to hand stops? Do the hand stops offer better control of the weapon? I am thinking of purchasing the new Gear Sector hand stops and its recommended to run them in pairs. I was wondering if a VFG + side mounted hand stop will give you the same control as a pair of hand stops? Thanks.

For my shooting style, the handstops work very well. I've used several different ones, and the KAC and Gear sector both work very well. The Gear Sector one is designed with a few more angles for hand placement, and is a fraction smaller. I use both, and the GS version is a bit cheaper.

If you haven't read my comments on the Gear Sector lineup, there is an article written up on Military Times that you may find interesting.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gears...and-handstops/

**SDDuc996** · 7 February 2010, 02:52

I think for civilian use the GS and even AFG are alright depending on your shooting style and obviously the weapon. If you're military and called on to do a lot of close quarters, I don't feel you can get enough ass behind muzzle-striking someone unless you go with a solid VFG.

I like using a shorter VFG, up forward and with my support hand half on the rail (thumb pointing at target) and half on the VFG.

What's the distance between your support hand position and muzzle?

**Eric** · 7 February 2010, 07:53

I have been using a GS hand stop for a bit and so far, really like it. I was never 100% sold on the need for a VFG for what I do and I think that many of the ones in use now are simply too large for most users. The hand stops might be a better choice, but not necessarily for everyone.

**d90king** · 7 February 2010, 08:50

I have recently switched from the LT stubby to the AFG. I have only been able to shoot a 1k rounds or so because of workload and weather. I like it so far and have found it to allow for a more positive grip resulting in better muzzle control.

I do wish that LMT used a flush screw for the FSB as the HUGE knob interferes with my thumb... I am going to try a stop and see which one of the three options fit my shooting style best. After seeing Sticks review on Gear Sectors lineup I think I will try theirs and KAC's version.

**Muddyboots** · 7 February 2010, 12:29

A Vertical Fore Grip (VFG) is not legal in some states who have maintained the '94 AWB, New York is one such. I am allowed to use a VFG on my "pre-ban" AR but not on my newer weapons. I have one carbine that I call "The New Yorker" Since it is as state of the art as possible yet complies fully with NYS law. This Carbine has a PWS muzzle break and a Gear Sector hand stop. It also has a full length Vltor clubfoot stock. Here is the funny part and quite un-intentional result of the NYS law; it seems to make better shooters! Even when I us my pre-ban or I'm in PA (or other non-AWB states) I still run my stock all the way out and use my LaRue FUG (shortest!) as a stop. I do this with plates on and for CQB stuff. I know it's personal preference up to the point where only hits count and fast hits count fast. Efficacy and efficiency are drawing my training in this direction and I'm very happy with the results I'm getting. The body mechanics seem to function best with a thumb forward around the rail grip. I admit I have long arms and big rock climber's hands.

As far as weapons retention or muzzle striking, it's almost impossible to butt stroke with the common modern set up without changing grips. This has brought muzzle strikes and "slashes" to the fore. Remember those old bayonet drills? I find I get more control and force without the VFG. The VFG puts the force off line and sends a lot of it into a torque that could actually roll the weapon out of your hands or break the VFG. I've seen this happen to a couple people in their adrenalized exuberance. Remember what the technique is for, to buy time/distance to do something better with. You don't even need a toothy device for it to really suck on the receiving end. Poke somebody with the front of a common AA maglight to find that out. Either way we're over the "this works" threshold by a long shot.

I hope this comment helps someone out there.

Muddyboots

**Stickman** · 7 February 2010, 13:22

Originally Posted by SDDuc996

I think for civilian use the GS and even AFG are alright depending on your shooting style and obviously the weapon. If you're military and called on to do a lot of close quarters, I don't feel you can get enough ass behind muzzle-striking someone unless you go with a solid VFG.

I've muzzle punched people on multiple occasions, both with and without a VFG. Its the same basic drill as bayonet thrusts and most of my drive comes from body movement and pistol grip hand.

Highly effective strike.

**SDDuc996** · 7 February 2010, 19:02

I agree that with the old KAC 2 pc rail and foregrip this was an issue. My bro-in-law had just returned from Dieter's CQD and told me how many KAC VFG's would break right off (broken tit) as well as bottom rails popping off. Current issue DD MK18 RISII's and sturdier Tangodown vfg's have solved this.

The guys I work with are trained to enter "high ready". As soon as they breach the threshold they punch out and can either muzzle strike or fire pending the situation.

If you know you're going to muzzle strike, you can prep your support hand if NOT using a VFG. I don't know what kind of gorilla grip you use on your fore end but is your forehand grip the same from muzzle strikes to shooting? I feel that the VFG is the way to go for that situation. NSW thinks the same and trains this way.

Granted my support hand grip changes if I'm at range out in the open where I grip like described above, to inside where it's fully on the VFG.

Obviously to each their own, but I'd rather go with how I was taught.

**Muddyboots** · 7 February 2010, 21:14

Hey, I agree! The training is the training. Go with it! I think you cited the cause of breakage accurately enough too. I bet we are actually on the 95% same page with this and hyper detailing the last 5%. For YOUR needs your way makes sense.

Muddyboots

**SDDuc996** · 7 February 2010, 21:43

Exactly. I don't believe there is ONE right way.

After working with a lot of other countries SOF, you start to realize how good ours are. I told my bro-in-law this (West Coast Frog) and he said, "Nah. We just don't suck AS BAD!"

**Muddyboots** · 7 February 2010, 22:46

Amen!

Muddyboots

**Castillo** · 16 February 2010, 13:07

Originally Posted by Muddyboots

A Vertical Fore Grip (VFG) is not legal in some states who have maintained the '94 AWB, New York is one such. I am allowed to use a VFG on my "pre-ban" AR but not on my newer weapons. I have one carbine that I call "The New Yorker" Since it is as state of the art as possible yet complies fully with NYS law. This Carbine has a PWS muzzle break and a Gear Sector hand stop. It also has a full length Vltor clubfoot stock. Here is the funny part and quite un-intentional result of the NYS law; it seems to make better shooters! Even when I us my pre-ban or I'm in PA (or other non-AWB states) I still run my stock all the way out and use my LaRue FUG (shortest!) as a stop. I do this with plates on and for CQB stuff. I know it's personal preference up to the point where only hits count and fast hits count fast. Efficacy and efficiency are drawing my training in this direction and I'm very happy with the results I'm getting. The body mechanics seem to function best with a thumb forward around the rail grip. I admit I have long arms and big rock climber's hands.

As far as weapons retention or muzzle striking, it's almost impossible to butt stroke with the common modern set up without changing grips. This has brought muzzle strikes and "slashes" to the fore. Remember those old bayonet drills? I find I get more control and force without the VFG. The VFG puts the force off line and sends a lot of it into a torque that could actually roll the weapon out of your hands or break the VFG. I've seen this happen to a couple people in their adrenalized exuberance. Remember what the technique is for, to buy time/distance to do something better with. You don't even need a toothy device for it to really suck on the receiving end. Poke somebody with the front of a common AA maglight to find that out. Either way we're over the "this works" threshold by a long shot.

I hope this comment helps someone out there.

Muddyboots

You need to check your laws. VFGs after perfectly legal in NY on pre and post ban guns.

**Muddyboots** · 17 February 2010, 11:45

Castillo, Thank you!

You were right to flag my post for content error, I appreciate the correction.

I did further research and discovered that they are not specifically prohibited in the text of NYS law. Here is the problem I encountered, My local LE doesn't seem very concerned with what the text says! I contacted the county Sheriff who didn't know but suspected it was an AWB disqualifying feature. The county DA said specifically that it WAS a disqualifying feature. I may well be legally allowed to use a VFG but I'm not willing to be a test case. I would like to see a clear statement from a NYS legal authority that they VFGs are in fact legal, especially in some form I can cite. I know that there are a lot of things that are and are not considered legal depending on the responding officer, folding knife blade length for example. I guess my fault is being very conservative in the face of a ridiculous legal structure.

Sorry if I alarmed anyone!

Muddyboots

**Stickman** · 17 February 2010, 12:07

Write a letter or email, and ask the DA what the portion of the law is that disqualifies it. Don't get a generic reply, ask for the particular section of code that applies.

**Muddyboots** · 17 February 2010, 13:55

Stickman,

That is exactly what I'm doing. Several letters are going out and I've already contacted the local NY NRA affiliate. The more I thought about it, the more annoyed I got. Now I'm doing something about it!

Thanks for the push guys!

(I still think I prefer a hand stop though...)

Muddyboots

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