AR Virgin Needs Direction

[Big Willy]

Hello all!

I’m 100% new to the AR scene and need some direction from those who have knowledge of the platform. I would like to own an AR but do not know where to start. Way too many options to choose from!

I would like to keep it below $1500 if I can. No need for exotic stuff. I want quality, function and something I can use for years to come.

It will be used for target, hunting and someday tactical shooting. Your thoughts on the following questions would be great. I would like to do it right the first time!

• Buy AR or build AR? What are the pros and cons? Most bang for the buck?
• Brands to look at?
• Brands to stay away from?
• Piston or non-piston operated?

The forum is very interesting. Good info! I’ll keep reading but… would like to get some direction if you will be so generous.

Thank you in advance for your time and input!

Big Willy

[Jerry R]

Welcome to WEVO !!

I will let the resident experts provide advice, just wanted to welcome you aboard.

Having said that .............

Building one is not difficult, will give you tremendous insight into how they work, and how to fix any "issues" you have down the road.

Buying (quality) factory-built gets you someone to call if there are problems, and a warranty.

As you said, there are lots to choose from with a street price within your range. Read up on some of the field reviews, take magazine reviews with a grain of salt - although most would not deliberately mislead you. Do some homework on DI vs. Piston. Visit the manufacturers web sites. Really think through what you want it for as you gather information. Let that lead you into an intelligent decision.

Keep us posted on your thoughts as you work through this. Info you find will be of interest to others that are doing the same thing.

That is what forums like this are all about - sharing knowledge.

[5pins]

1. You will probably save money if you build.
2. Colt, BCM, LMT, S&W. Take a look at the chart. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?k...QsEuEhjFwPrgTA
3. Bushmaster, DPMS, and others. Look at the chart.
4. Personally I don’t see a need for a piston for your needs.

[Big Willy]

Jerry R & 5pins,

Thank you for the reply and information! I really appreciate it! The Spreadsheet is very cool. I’ll do some reading. It seems to have some of the same thoughts as another thread I looked at with regards to the key points to look for. Very cool!

• Any thoughts on how much I could save building?

• Is it true that you can save on tax(s) if you buy parts v. s. a whole gun on-line?

• I’m thinking a 16” barrel. Am I going to lose any accuracy over a longer barrel?

• Has the buying madness slowed any? Will I be stuck waiting for a whole gun? Will I be stuck waiting for parts to build if I go that way? I know… you do not have a crystal ball but… the overall barometer is what I’m looking for.

Thanks again for your time and insight!

Big Willy

[marko]

build one its a lot cheaper and fun..
16" carbine heavy barrel (not chrome lined) about $650
20" rifle heavy barrel free floated (not chrome lined) about $800

[willardcw4]

I just got into ARs a month or two ago... and here is what I did:

I bought a stripped lower and a LPK and put that together. I bought a complete upper (upper receiver and barrel already attached). This way, the only tools I needed was a punch kit for some of the pins on the lower assembly.

My lower: Spikes Tactical
My Upper: LMT (16", 1/7, chrome lined everything)

It is true that there is a tax on complete rifles versus just buying the parts separately. However, from my experience, when you start looking at individual parts, you end up spending MORE money than they comparable complete rifle because you choose more quality components and better accessories... which isn't really a bad thing :)

I think building is the better way to go, but you really need to ask questions and spend a couple weeks doing your research. It also depends on where you buy your components... some deals are better than others.

16" length barrel should be fine... unless you want to shoot 500+ yds... Keep in mind that its a .223, so you probably won't be hitting 1000 yds with this caliber I would suggest getting a chrome-lined barrel.

From my limited experience, most AR manufacturers have upper and lower parts in pretty regularly. If you buy from someone like BCM (bravo company), then you KNOW that if something is in stock, they'll ship it to you, and it will be of great quality. The only thing that is kind of iffy where I live is ammo... but I reload, so it doesn't affect me much :)

There are lots of good stickies around that you should read... just try and get familiar with what makes certain components "good" versus others. i.e. proper bolt carrier staking, m4 feed ramps, etc. Not all of these 'toys' are necessary if you are just using the weapon for a hobby, but it will give you a good idea as to which manufacturers and such to take a closer look at.

Do a LOT of reading, and keep coming back with more questions! :)

[rob_s]

IMHO buy vs. build has a lot to do with your use and your eventual end-state. If simply owning, and occasionally shooting at the static range, is the end-state then there is a different set of criteria than someone looking to shoot thousands of rounds per month. (many times those that start out in the first group wind up in the second, but the first group also outnumbers the second by 100:1 easily)

"Build" is also a misnomer. I am in construction and we build buildings, commercial internet buyers do not "build" ARs, they assemble them. A minor distinction to some but I think it goes to the ease with which one can assemble (to my ear "assemble" sounds easier than "build", YMMV).

Finally, I cannot stress strongly enough that one is far better served by beginning with a simple but high quality firearm, professional training from a qualified instructor, and adapting and making changes as the need arises. All of the lights, lasers, stocks, rail systems, grips, etc. have evolved over time to fill specific needs (or to line the pockets of the inventor). Until you shoot the basic firearm it is virtually impossible to know if those products will benefit YOU for YOUR USE.

Finally there is the question of how comfortable one is with purchasing guns and parts from the internet. Some buyers are adamant that they buy off the shelf from their local shop which limits options and tends to be more expensive. Buyers willing to utilize the internet for purchases (whether parts or whole guns) tend to save a few dollars which can be put towards increasing the quality of the base purchase.

[Ryo]

For a good manufacture, I would go with Noveske, BCM, LMT, Colt.

Building is fun, but I would be sure to get good quality parts.

[TwoSqeeze]

• Buy AR or build AR? What are the pros and cons? Most bang for the buck?
• Brands to look at?
• Brands to stay away from?
• Piston or non-piston operated?

1. There are several great manufactures out there that you can buy from (BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, to name a few). Since this is your first venture into the platform there is something to be said for having a manufacture to call should something go wrong. That being said there is a reason why Rob S. says that we "assemble" these things and not "build" them. If you start with quality parts these rifles go together as smooth as butter. Take this with a grain of salt but I would order an fully assymbaled lower from Grant at G&R Tactical (he has some good prices on the daniel defense lowers), and then I would pop over to Bravo Company and pic up a complete lightwieght 16 inch midlength upper with a DD lightrail.
2. BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense, Spikes.
3. I don't feel comfortable putting brands down that I have never owned nor seen malfunction in person. However if you do some digging I am sure that you can find this information.
4. This is a touchy subject for many folks. My own personal opinion is that I see nothing wrong with the DI system (non-piston). Through all my time in the military and so far with my own AR they have functioned flawlessly as long as I have done my part in keeping them lubed. I have no doubt that the piston guns work, I just can't see the benefits of adding more moving parts and wieght to the gun when there is nothing wrong with the way it is operating in the first place.

My last piece of advice is to not listen to me. I only have one post two posts on this board and have not built credibility. I may know my stuff but it is only because I have learned from reading posts fromthe likes of Rob S., Gotm4 and others on this board. Do a lot of research, validate your sources the best you can and I'm sure that you will be happy with whatever you come up with.

-TS

[TehLlama]

You're on the right track - a solid 16" AR is the best way to get into the game, period!
Pistons only make sense if you're running suppressed, SBR, or really: both.

If you want the maximum adventure up front:

Find a lower reciever of your choice. Spike's, CMMG, Aero, MEGA, BCM, POF - there's too many to list.
Ensure there's a quality LPK in it (Colt, DanielDefense, Stag/CMT, WhiteOakArmament, RockRiverArms).

I'd go with an H buffer in mil-spec receiver extension - you can add a VLTOR or MagPul stock later. Best bang/buck is any stripped lower, and G&R for the LPK/Stock

As for upper - it's hard not to go with a complete BCM upper. Noveske, Rainier, LMT, DanielDefense or an S&W VTAC would also be great choices.
If something else catches your eye, really try for a chrome lined upper with 5.56 chamber, then get a bolt carrier group that is HP and MPi tested (worth the extra money).

As far as rails - if you have the budget up front, get a quality free floated rail, and save yourself the pain of getting one down the road. You'll end up mounting a flashlight at least in all likelihood, shop for that down the line.

Magazines - get a dozen MagPul PMags. Don't look back. Get 1000rds of good brass cased ammunition. PRVI Partizan, PMC, Winchester, American Eagle, DRS, Sellier&Bellot - all good choices.

I'd do all this without buying optics just yet - run quality back up sights (MagPul MBUS, Daniel Defense or LMT fixed, TROY) and you'll be happiest. Down the road, look into the various optic offerings; we'll be happy to help.

[Big Willy]

Wow!!! I’ve been on forums before and never seen such great response and information! Thank you!

Is this (see link below) a good place to start if I choose to build?

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...rchResult.html

If so, what options of those listed on the site would you equip it (lower) with?
See any problems with using this lower for my build if I choose to build?

How about thus upper?

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-B...d-16%20bfh.htm

See any problems with using this upper for my build if I choose to build?

Thanks again for your input and time!

Big Willy

[rob_s]

That lower is a great start. Here's how I'd "make" it.

Price: $126.00
Quantity: 1
LPK: GR Tactical + LMT Components
Receiver Extension: GR Tactical 6 Position Mil-Spec
Castle Nut: GR Tactical
Receiver Plate: Daniel Defense QD Receiver Plate (no swivel)
Buffer Springs: GR Tactical SS
Buffers: H Buffer
Rear Grips: Magpul MOE
Stocks: Magpul MOE
Trigger Guards: Magpul Enhanced
Price with your options: $412

That is MY assembly for the majority of MY needs. What you or someone else needs or wants may be different.

On the upper I would go with the lightweight mid-length personally but the one you linked to is hammer-forged which is supposed to offer longer barrel life. I'd add to that a BCM BCG for $140, a BCM MOD 04 charging handle for $40, and a set of RRA handguards for $20 (IIRC).

[5pins]

Wow!!! I’ve been on forums before and never seen such great response and information! Thank you!

Is this (see link below) a good place to start if I choose to build?

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...rchResult.html

If so, what options of those listed on the site would you equip it (lower) with?
See any problems with using this lower for my build if I choose to build?

How about thus upper?

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-B...d-16%20bfh.htm

See any problems with using this upper for my build if I choose to build?

Thanks again for your input and time!

Big Willy

You should be able to get all of that from G&R and save a little on shipping. I think Grant will assemble the lower for free. All you would need to do is put the upper and lower together and your “build” is finished.
It looks like he is out of the BCM hammer forge mid-length uppers but he has the non-hammer forge in stock.

[Stickman]

BW,


The first thing I would ask is if there were a certain configuration that you were leaning towards? If you go through the tacked thread where people are discussing why they went with the layout they are showing, it should give you a good amount of info.

Once you figure out the basics, and if you want a carbine or rifle. Fixed stock or adjustable, rail or no rail, carbine or midlength gas system, we can start giving you pointers. Without a basic direction, we could be leading you astray.

When you say build, how much are you willing to build? Its pretty easy to purchase a complete upper, and complete lower, and push the two pins together, and that qualifies as a build. You can also assemble a stripped lower, or you could go whole hog and assemble the entire upper yourself as well.

[Big Willy]

Thanks for the replies guys!!!

My budget may have been chopped a bit! The Tax Man has just stuck it up my @$$. Being unemployed is bad enough! Now I owe on Taxes!

I’m going to need to look at best bang for the buck as money is tight.


Stickman,

Thanks for the direction. I looked at that post(s) yesterday.

• I’m looking for a 16” barrel with M4 ramps, chrome bore & chamber. Best of all worlds?

• It looks like a 1:7 Twist rate is best for accuracy?

• M4 Flat Top?

• I believe I want a Carbine?

• The Lower I’m looking at is the Daniel Defense @ G&R Tactical

• M16 Bolt – Daniel Defense @ G&R Tactical

• Free Float front hand guard W/ Rail(s)?

• Adjustable Stock

• Smith Flash Hider

How am I tracking thus far? Any issues you see? Is Daniel Defense good quality? How do these guys rank in the AR food chain?

I was a mechanic in the past. Build is a good question. I can rebuild an engine... will this be more in depth?

It looks like I’m going to need to try and stick around $1000.00 now.

How’s others experience with G&R Tactical? Been calling and get machine. Is this the norm?

Thanks!

Big Willy