AR Accuracy Expectations

[rob_s]

Perhaps, but it is good to understand the limitations of your tools - whatever they may be.

- Mike

I would argue that it's not only good but necessary, and is entirely my point. If you don't know that Wolf is 4 MOA ammo, or XM193 is 2 MOA ammo, and then head out to try and work on your marksmanship techniques you can make yourself crazy trying to figure out why you can't get tighter groups.

My personal standard has always been hitting an 8" plate at 200 yards and have been able to do this for quite some time, even with an Aimpoint. but I'd shoot that same setup on paper for groups and think I was a mediocre shooter. It wasn't until recently that I did what gunbuilder suggests and put a 9x optic on the gun and shot some very high quality 75 and 77 grain ammo and found out that I was able to hold 1/2 in groups at 50 yards. I don't think that's any great shakes but by all accounts that's pretty much the best you're going to get out of a milspec barrel as it equates to sub-MOA with good ammo.

Right tool for the job. Surplus grade when blasting, practicing, training, even competing in action matches, but better grade ammo when trying to work on accuracy.

[BamaMike]

The first thing I do with any gun and tuning is throw on a high power target scope and test loads. It becomes plainly obvious when you flinch, pull or otherwise pooch the trigger. If you are trying to zero in on the best load using the irons then move up your paper to 25 and 50 yards and you can get a better idea of when it is your error and not the ammo's. Sandbags can suffice down to 1/4 - 1/2" range at 100 no need for a sled. Maybe you really haven't settled into that rear peep yet or are "over-thinking" it? Between it and the AR's stock weld it can be a challenge for someone used to bolt gun ergonomics. It was for me.

While I would love to say that I don't flinch, it would be total BS to make that assertion; however, I am, or try to be, very careful to watch for "flinching" and do attribute some inconsistency with that which bemoans some of us. As far as irons, I am past that, at least for now while I try to get the best group I can under the circumstances. At some point I would like to get a sled if for nothing else to resolve the issue of why some shots are flying outside the realm of accuracy. Some shots seem pretty wild and flinching does not seem to account for their randomness as some land over 3" outside of my point of aim. Some of these shots are made when my aim is consistent and my concentration is very certain as the "boom" is a satisfying surprise when encountered. That is usually a good sign when worried about flinching or at least that is what I recall hearing when I learned to shoot so many years ago. What is funny is that I tried heavier grain ammo (M855 (62 grain)) and my gun did not seem to like them much at all as they were "flying" more frequently than the XM193's (55 grain). I would have assumed the opposite. The best shots placed with the lighter round would have had me bragging if I could show consistency as they were pretty tight (within an inch), but that was probably a fluke.

The philosophy of cheek weld being an issue has always been hard for me to understand (at least with a scoped rifle) as when the cross hairs are on target the bullet should presumably hit the target (???). Again, that may show my ignorance, but I have no ego to bruise (well, not much) - just trying to do the best with what I have.

As so many of you offer tips to help me achieve accuracy I can only say how appreciative I am for the comments and tips. I continue to add these recommendations to my regime and shy of getting the suggested Black Hills ammo I am employing the comments to isolate the root cause, but so far I have not done a good job of localizing it to one area. I still believe that it may be a combination of factors that I may have little control over, but I keep looking…

Thanks,

Mike

[BamaMike]

I would argue that it's not only good but necessary, and is entirely my point. If you don't know that Wolf is 4 MOA ammo, or XM193 is 2 MOA ammo, and then head out to try and work on your marksmanship techniques you can make yourself crazy trying to figure out why you can't get tighter groups.

Of this, we are in total agreement.

I suppose I should give it up (accuracy with surplus ammo), and focus on getting some Black Hills stuff to try to make holes in paper, use surplus to plink...

Thanks for the sanity check.

- Mike

[TehLlama]

More importantly, realize that accuracy functions as a stack of tolerances. To make really tight groups, you'll need a good barrel, good trigger, (optic), and quality ammunition. To make acceptable groups, you can take rack grade rifles and run spec 5.56 ammunition through it. It doesn't take a match barrel and customized handloads to diagnose a novice shooters' deficiencies, nor does it take a ton of money to make a very accurate AR.
If paper isn't your primary foe, then a chrome lined barrel with stock trigger is more than adequate for anybody this discussion applies to (for those with enough ammo downrange to achieve that level of mastery have probably already figured out).
Simple upgrades (free floating, aftermarket trigger) and any sort of accuracy mindful ammunition will build you a rifle that will outshoot most rifle owners, and these rifles certainly are able to withstand use as a blaster for closer range shooting.

For now, learn about how to run glass - we've had shooters at the range have a really hard time dealing with not being directly behind their RCOs, and wind up with groups spraying all over the place. You should get the exact same spot behind the optic (for why, start googling Parallax and keep reading until your brain hurts), as that inconsistency can account for more variation than Wolf ammo can.

Looking back at a historical perspective - a rifle that held 3MOA as an issue weapon would have been considered a tack driver prior to Eugene Stoner's wee poodle shooter, and that still equates to hitting a chest sized target at half a click. A well thought out modern AR can do half that with the right ammo, though most shooters can't.

For now, I'm accumulating lots of surplus ammo for short range and training use, PPU 75gr HPBT semi-match stuff to run through for competition and long range plinking, and finally some T2 TAP and Mk262 for when I don't feel the need to pinch pennies of ammunition - so I'd say your logic is quite good.

[BamaMike]

More importantly, realize that accuracy functions as a stack of tolerances. To make really tight groups, you'll need a good barrel, good trigger, (optic), and quality ammunition. To make acceptable groups, you can take rack grade rifles and run spec 5.56 ammunition through it. It doesn't take a match barrel and customized handloads to diagnose a novice shooters' deficiencies, nor does it take a ton of money to make a very accurate AR.
If paper isn't your primary foe, then a chrome lined barrel with stock trigger is more than adequate for anybody this discussion applies to (for those with enough ammo downrange to achieve that level of mastery have probably already figured out).
Simple upgrades (free floating, aftermarket trigger) and any sort of accuracy mindful ammunition will build you a rifle that will outshoot most rifle owners, and these rifles certainly are able to withstand use as a blaster for closer range shooting.

For now, learn about how to run glass - we've had shooters at the range have a really hard time dealing with not being directly behind their RCOs, and wind up with groups spraying all over the place. You should get the exact same spot behind the optic (for why, start googling Parallax and keep reading until your brain hurts), as that inconsistency can account for more variation than Wolf ammo can.

Looking back at a historical perspective - a rifle that held 3MOA as an issue weapon would have been considered a tack driver prior to Eugene Stoner's wee poodle shooter, and that still equates to hitting a chest sized target at half a click. A well thought out modern AR can do half that with the right ammo, though most shooters can't.

For now, I'm accumulating lots of surplus ammo for short range and training use, PPU 75gr HPBT semi-match stuff to run through for competition and long range plinking, and finally some T2 TAP and Mk262 for when I don't feel the need to pinch pennies of ammunition - so I'd say your logic is quite good.

Thanks for the vote of confidence (on the logic end of things). As many have said, perhaps I am expecting too much from the variables and doubt that there is any real issue, as I am hitting the targets within the prescribed areas and for a battle rifle it is effective (at least @ 100 yds (farthest I have shot so far)). I certainly would kill whatever I was aiming at even with the worst flyers. I will try to get some better ammo to try.

I also intend to put together a dedicated rifle for more precision and have been eying several barrels Lothar, Douglas, WOA, Krieger, Noveske, etc and either the single stage Wilson Combat TTU or a Geissele two stage trigger (Match or DMR) or the non-adjustable SSA-E (really focusing on this one as I doubt I would mess with adjustment). This would be a fun project, albeit expensive.

Thanks for the comments and the insight!

- Mike

[BamaMike]

An update and a possible explanation:

I went shooting the other day and my shots were more erratic than usual and I went to adjust the windage and the scope body moved a little. I do not know how long the scope mount loosened but the mount had loosened from the rail. So much so that the mounting nuts turned by hand, so I have to reinstall it. The mount is a Burris PEPR and it has lock washers that I assumed would preclude their backing out. I will use some blue loctite tonight when I reinstall the scope. After I removed the scope I shot a clip with the BUIS and I was quite pleased that my shots at 100 yds were quite accurate. I was not shooting at designated targets but rather picking at junk on the berm (earthen backstop).

Of course, my accuracy challenge will continue along with an expansion of sorts into this hobby. I want to update the trigger and while Geissele makes a great trigger I believe the next upgrade will be a Wilson TTU as Stick’s review (and others on the net) has been very favorable. I am also going to dive into the reloading scene as I am outgrowing surplus ammo both with its accuracy and cost (okay, mainly cost). I want a progressive loader and after looking at the Dillon 650 and the Hornady LNL I am swaying towards the Hornady and may order it before the end of month while it is on sale at Midway. I will likely be asking some advice from more experienced reloaders here, so please feel free to comment/advise.

Anyway, I just wanted to update everyone, as you all have been very supportive!

- Mike

[HS2]

I've had similar problems with various components getting loose. Though the AR does not have a lot of apparent recoil it definately can shake things loose.

[Paulo_Santos]

Both the Dillon and Hornady presses are both top notch. I have the Dillon 550.

Always put Blue Loctite on screws.