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  1. #1
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    AR Accuracy Expectations

    I have read many of the postings here and there as no shortage of good advice, and for that I am more appreciative than many here will ever know (just simply for sharing). Like many, I have probably bought too much gun for the moment but always embraced the philosophy to buy more and “grow into it.” I’m not sure that is serving me well, but I do like what I have and I suppose there is a lot that can be said for liking what you drive. To carry the analogy further – now I need to get more experience behind the wheel. But first, here is my current setup:

    -Spike's Upper M4 flat top upper receiver w/Spike's Tactical Billet charging handle
    -Spike's Lower w/Nickel Boron coated Trigger, Hammer, and Disconnector
    -Daniel Defense 16" Barrel with Mid-length gas system (1:7)
    -Daniel Defense 12.0 Lite rail w/ Micro gas block
    -Phantom 52C Flash Hider.
    -KNS Gen II Mod II Anti-Rotation trigger and hammer pins.
    -ST-T2 Tungsten Heavy buffer.
    -Magpul ACS stock
    -Magpul MOE Grip.
    -Front (HK style) and Rear Troy BUIS.

    The gun was from a group buy on AR-15.com and I got some extras for buying their 2009 SEBR overstock, which apparently was a victim of today’s beleaguered economy. It is a nice gun and functions flawlessly. I have spent some time and several hundred rounds shooting with just the BUIS and can honestly say I hate battle rifle sights. I applaud those of you that can shoot beyond 100 yards accurately. I can hit a man sized target fine; just do not feel comfortable sharing any paper targets that I punch holes in. It is funny how I can hit bricks and other trash out on the berm, but paper seems to be elusive, at least for consistent shot placement. I am using Federal 55 gr ammo and though it is not match ammo, it probably is better than some of the other surplus stuff out there.

    Recently I purchased a Weaver Grand Slam Tactical 3-10X scope to practice more precision type shooting and while my apparent accuracy improved, my shot placement (on paper) seems relatively as sporadic. Now, it (my accuracy) is certainly better than my shots before the scope but I am not as happy with the results as I had hoped for. Of course I will continue to practice and expect that I will get better as I continue to gain experience but I suppose I must have to ask those of you with much more experience – is this (inconsistent grouping (more than an 2" @ 100yds)) commonly an issue with ammunition, the shooter, gun, or am I just expecting too much from all of the above.

    I am really not discouraged as it may sound, and I am not so egotistical to blame everything else as my suspicions are that it really is me that is driving the shots. I would just hate to be blaming myself just to find out that an average barrel shooting surplus ammo shoots, well… …average. Can anyone relate? LOL

    - Mike

  2. #2
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    2" groups with off the shelf generic ammo isn't bad at all. Unless you are playing around with different ammo to see what your weapon prefers, I think you are doing fine.

    Buy a few different boxes of ammo and see how your groups do.



    ETA- Are you shooting off a bipod, sandbag, or using another way to brace? Are you using a sling to wrap?

  3. #3
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    Generally speaking, if you can get 10 rounds in a 1.5" (1.5 MOA) at 100 yards, you are doing great, unless you are benchrest shooting.
    My LMT shoots the M193 2 MOA at 100 yards.

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    Stick/Paul, I was shooting from a bench on a less than ideal shooting bag (too low), but regardless - the rifle was sufficiently braced. I am sure technique has something to do with it as well as some other variables. I see some with bolt guns using a "lead sled" and wonder how well that would work out. Of course, using one would only tell me if the rifle or ammo was the weak link and really do nothing for accuracy from the practical shooting perspective. It is comforting to realize that my accuracy issues may be two fold (the platform and I), but sobering to think that the weapon is that "loose." Nevertheless, it is what it is - a battle weapon and not a precision shooter. I intend to do as you said Stick and try to find the load my barrel "likes" and already have some PMC 62 grain SS109 I have yet to try. I do appreciate the input and imagine this conversation may help some fellow shooters who may be entertaining the same questions. No matter what, I love the rifle and will do whatever it takes to maximize my effectiveness to use it properly.

    - Mike

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    hello there,
    Ive seen a few guys with the same issues and for what its worth heres my 2 cents.

    3 lb trigger will help
    less coffee in the morning
    breathing..... you want to pull that trigger with no air in your lungs take several deep breathes and let your heart rate slow
    comfortable shooting platform


    Steve

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    Being rather new to ARs and rifle shooting in general, I'll let the real experts talk about what your rifle is capable of but I was struck but your statement that you had no problem "hitting bricks and other trash out on the berm" but that paper was giving you trouble.

    I wonder if the problem is perhaps that when faced with paper you psych yourself out.

    There are always certain targets that, for whatever reason, we hate, even fear sometimes, because we convinced ourselves that we can't do well with them. Maybe it's because we set the bar too high (e.g. looking at really tight groups from other shooters and thinking that it's what's expected) or maybe because we underestimate our own capabilites, but subconsciouly we are sufficiently affected that we make mistakes that don't occur shooting at any other targets.

    I've seen it many times in various classes and I'll admit that while I normally have few problems hitting small targets (with a pistol at pistol ranges) like an ear on a photo target, when it comes to paper with scoring rings, I just don't do as well. My solution to this problem has been to try and forget everything but my front sight and trigger and rework the fundamentals (sometimes a couple of dry fire runs calm me enough).

    I have no idea if you actually are psyching yourself out or not, since I do not know you; but if it at all resonates with you, take a little break before going to paper targets, a few really deep breaths before you settle in with your rifle and forget about the paper while just focusing on the fundamentals and you are likely to find yourself making groups that you didn't know you could.

    Of course, I could just as easily be totally wrong.

    P.S. 2"+ groups at 100 yards are very nice in my book.

  7. #7
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by henpecked View Post
    hello there,
    Ive seen a few guys with the same issues and for what its worth heres my 2 cents.

    3 lb trigger will help
    less coffee in the morning
    breathing..... you want to pull that trigger with no air in your lungs take several deep breathes and let your heart rate slow
    comfortable shooting platform


    Steve
    Good tips... ...but no coffee? Are you nutz???

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wondering Beard View Post
    Being rather new to ARs and rifle shooting in general, I'll let the real experts talk about what your rifle is capable of but I was struck but your statement that you had no problem "hitting bricks and other trash out on the berm" but that paper was giving you trouble.

    I wonder if the problem is perhaps that when faced with paper you psych yourself out.

    There are always certain targets that, for whatever reason, we hate, even fear sometimes, because we convinced ourselves that we can't do well with them. Maybe it's because we set the bar too high (e.g. looking at really tight groups from other shooters and thinking that it's what's expected) or maybe because we underestimate our own capabilites, but subconsciouly we are sufficiently affected that we make mistakes that don't occur shooting at any other targets.

    I've seen it many times in various classes and I'll admit that while I normally have few problems hitting small targets (with a pistol at pistol ranges) like an ear on a photo target, when it comes to paper with scoring rings, I just don't do as well. My solution to this problem has been to try and forget everything but my front sight and trigger and rework the fundamentals (sometimes a couple of dry fire runs calm me enough).

    I have no idea if you actually are psyching yourself out or not, since I do not know you; but if it at all resonates with you, take a little break before going to paper targets, a few really deep breaths before you settle in with your rifle and forget about the paper while just focusing on the fundamentals and you are likely to find yourself making groups that you didn't know you could.

    Of course, I could just as easily be totally wrong.

    P.S. 2"+ groups at 100 yards are very nice in my book.
    No way, you are totally wrong…

    Just kidding. Truth is, I have thought about that. With BUIS I totally agree with your thinking, but feel less sure with a scope; nevertheless, it is certainly within the realm of possibility as I can see other signs where I am more relaxed (and accurate) “plinking.” The thought has some merit, but before I can give it credence I need to rule out other more physical explanations (hence my question to the expected accuracy of the platform).

    It would make an excellent study and I would be willing to be a subject for a series of tests to determine if this could be an issue for today’s fighting men (and women). Maybe the current administration would provide a stimulus package to WEVO funding such a series of tests? Hmmm… Could take years and countless $$$

    - Mike

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    Mike, also try different positions. I prefer to shoot on the ground in the prone position with a bipod or bag in the front and a rest in the rear. I can drive the AR much better from the prone position. Try different positions and see what works best for you. See if you can get a box of some good ammo such as Black Hills 68/69/75/77 GR ammo or the Hornady TAP ammo and see how accurate it is. This way you can rule out the ammo as being the problem. And while some guys have gotten decent results out of the cheap plinking ammo, generally, you get what you pay for.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulosantos View Post
    Mike, also try different positions. I prefer to shoot on the ground in the prone position with a bipod or bag in the front and a rest in the rear. I can drive the AR much better from the prone position. Try different positions and see what works best for you. See if you can get a box of some good ammo such as Black Hills 68/69/75/77 GR ammo or the Hornady TAP ammo and see how accurate it is. This way you can rule out the ammo as being the problem. And while some guys have gotten decent results out of the cheap plinking ammo, generally, you get what you pay for.
    Thanks Paul! All good suggestions especially the different positions. Believe it or not this is one thing I did not think of even though it is one of the fundamentals I remember when I learned to shoot. talk about getting stuck in the proverbial rut of old age... :)

    The ammo thing is a good idea and I meant to ask you folks what is a good batch to test with and you beat me to the punch (thank you). I am saving my brass and hope to buy myself a reloading outfit (Dillon 550 or 650, maybe) when funds allow and expect to pick some more brains about that in the near future. Fun hobby and great bunch of smart folk here to help me spend what I don't have (LOL)...

    - Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMike View Post
    Thanks Paul! All good suggestions especially the different positions. Believe it or not this is one thing I did not think of even though it is one of the fundamentals I remember when I learned to shoot. talk about getting stuck in the proverbial rut of old age... :)

    The ammo thing is a good idea and I meant to ask you folks what is a good batch to test with and you beat me to the punch (thank you). I am saving my brass and hope to buy myself a reloading outfit (Dillon 550 or 650, maybe) when funds allow and expect to pick some more brains about that in the near future. Fun hobby and great bunch of smart folk here to help me spend what I don't have (LOL)...

    - Mike
    For reloading I highly recommend getting the Hornady 55 GR FMJ/BT 6K pack, which costs around $440 for 6,000 bullets ($8 per 100 bullets). I load them up with Benchmark or H4895 and I am getting around 1.25 MOA with those 55 GR FMJ Bullets. Even TAC, Varget, and X-Terminator work well with them. Very cheap and accurate.

    Also when shooting with irons, I just center the target on the front sight post. I like to come up on the target, while some others like to come down. Whatever works for you. Start with a large target like a mansize "Q" target if you can and once you are comfortable, move on to smaller targets. As long as I can hit the "Q" size targets with irons I'm happy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMike View Post
    The thought has some merit, but before I can give it credence I need to rule out other more physical explanations (hence my question to the expected accuracy of the platform).
    Makes perfect sense

    Quote Originally Posted by BamaMike View Post
    It would make an excellent study and I would be willing to be a subject for a series of tests to determine if this could be an issue for today’s fighting men (and women). Maybe the current administration would provide a stimulus package to WEVO funding such a series of tests? Hmmm… Could take years and countless $$$

    - Mike
    Now this is pork I favor

  13. #13
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    This fellow had the gun but not the position

    Tried and tried to get him to relax, wasnt till his back was hurting that he listened


    Group tightened up and he was killing praire dogs............

    Even had him leaning up against his quad for stability



    Scenery shot from one of are coyote trips


    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulosantos View Post
    For reloading I highly recommend getting the Hornady 55 GR FMJ/BT 6K pack, which costs around $440 for 6,000 bullets ($8 per 100 bullets). I load them up with Benchmark or H4895 and I am getting around 1.25 MOA with those 55 GR FMJ Bullets. Even TAC, Varget, and X-Terminator work well with them. Very cheap and accurate.

    Also when shooting with irons, I just center the target on the front sight post. I like to come up on the target, while some others like to come down. Whatever works for you. Start with a large target like a mansize "Q" target if you can and once you are comfortable, move on to smaller targets. As long as I can hit the "Q" size targets with irons I'm happy.
    Thanks for the tips (all of them). Not sure when I will go back to playing with irons again, but I was "walking" a brick at the 75 yard line one day, so I didn't feel too bad about using irons. But again, I would never show my target here (LOL).

    Reloading is something I am really wanting to get into and it will be my first real plunge into this renewed hobby (shooting). I sealed the deal somewhat when I bought 5k small rifle primers (Federal) a few months back when a local gun shop had a big sale going on. A federal rep told me that it was way cheaper at the sale than online so I got them. Cant recall the price now but I did look it up and it was a good deal. I do remember liking the idea that I was comiting myself by buying them (I can be such a kid sometimes...). I will look into those Hornady's for sure (and if some good deals surface let me know as I need to get some stock... well, in stock). Thanks again!

    - Mike

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    The best groups I've been able to get out of a chrome-lined "milspec" barrel was 0.50" average at 50 yards using Black Hills 77 gr HP and a 9x scope. Bipod on the front, sandbag under the rear. Rifle in question was a BCM RECCE 14 which is a 14.5" barrel with a Troy TRX free-float rail.

    In my experience XM193 is good for 2" groups at 100 in chrome-lined barrels. Some folks report getting tighter groups down to 1.25" or so but I have not found this in the guns I've tried it with.

    While the AR has certainly come a long way, and can be made to shoot extremely accurately with the right ammo, barrel, and shooter, if your intent for the gun is to shoot gnat's-ass groups I think you bought the wrong one. The setup you describe may be capable of the kind of groups I got with the BCM, but I don't frankly know why you'd bother worrying about it. If your intent is to sit in a static position and try to make holes as closely as possible to one another I think there are probably better choices out there, if you stick with the AR at all.
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