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  1. #16
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    You'll be ability ahead waiting on gear. There is nothing wrong with buying gear, but as soon as you use it, you'll be replacing half of it with newer stuff, or just different stuff. Tactical nylon is ALWAYS diminishing returns, and no complete rig will be correct out of the box, so you'll end up buying new stuff as your use and frame of reference expands. At least with MOLLE gear there isn't as much pain involved, but I don't know of any geardo who doesn't have two or three sets of gear just from accumulating stuff that works, but not as well as their go-to item set.

    I'd pick up surplus IFAK and Canteen pouches (shouldn't be more than $15 for quality ones), and if you find a deal on used Eagle MPC then go for it, though you're leaving out the necessity for soft armor to be used in conjunction with steel plates (added cost), so I would consider looking at the slightly pricier standalone ceramic units for weight, comfort, and efficacy.
    Chest rig will probably work better for now. The Eagle LE chest rig is my suggestion, run mags in the middle (3 or 6) with the IFAK and canteen on the sides. Aftermarket H Harnesses are excellent for these, but not worth the cost up front until you're sure that's the load carriage system you want to use.

    A chest rig separate from a plate carrier allows you to use just the PC for pistol shooting without the added bulk. Having heavy crap on you works fine when you're concern if moving about, but becomes a detraction VERY quickly when your focus is small muscle movements and trying to learn new skills, develop and improve existing ones, so having tiered items lets you go from slick, to armor (if needed), or just extra load carriage with the standalone chest rig.
    Usually with plate carriers the weight isn't what matters after a day of wearing them anyway, it's that armor doesn't breathe, and sweating takes a LOT out of you over the course of wearing body armor for a while. Couple that with some needless weight, and more magazines than necessary, and you have an expensive system that you won't use very often.

    It would be worth considering picking up just a rifle/pistol bandoleer (like the eagle one) to use temporarily, and then add to a backpacking kit (4 mags at most) for later use, but use that to identify what your needs really are.
    We jump on the professional instruction bandwagon because GOOD instruction (we know there are an asston of useless hacks who claim to be gun-ninjas: find an article about how to identify and ignore those, focus on quality instruction) because that's the most beneficial crucible where individual skills and equipment can be tested and improvements made. Even with relatively low quality military instruction I improved significantly at basic skills, but the instruction isn't the only thing you're paying for. I won't touch on why this concept is relevant to me (hate my current parent unit that exemplifies this) but going out and practicing without any significant goals, against any useful benchmarks, but only to expend resources and complete checks in boxes is about as practical as masturbation: if you haven't expanded the envelope or forced yourself to develop difficult skills and focus on non-strengths, it's just time and money inefficiently spent.
    S/F
    "There is no greater calling than to defend the life of a fellow Marine" - LtCol McClane, USMC

  2. #17
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    Hello Lamar,

    Specter Gear makes Nalgene Bottle Pouches as well as other items you may like. http://www.spectergear.com/372.htm
    "LONG LIVE THE FN-BROWNING-SAIVE HIGH POWER"

    John Browning & Dieudonne Saive's Designs Will Always be Light Years Ahead of All the Others.

    Fighting Anti-Gun Tyrants & Traitors is a 24/7 Job that Must be Done!

    I'd rather beat a bad guy to death with my Browning High Power, than shoot him dead with a plastic pistol.

  3. #18
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    Awesome information, guys. This is really helpful. I think I'm roughly on the right track now. The Nalgene bottle pouch looks absolutely perfect.

    Based on the advice here... I think I'll probably wait for the Eagle LE chest rig to come back in stock. I'm still stuck on the six mag thing... four just seems too few.

    I'll probably strap an IFAK, and the Nalgene pouch onto that and just see how that works out for a while. I can work on a plate/armor carrier later once I learn some some about armor.

    How hard is it to put on a plate carrier? Does it unbuckle at the side and you just slip in and buckle up? Put it on like a shirt and tighten it down?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamarbrog View Post
    In my first post, I mention that I am a civilian looking for a rig for "SHTF" (unlikely in my area... but whatever, can't be too prepared#, but mostly for fun. I'm sorry if I'm failing to meet expectation here by not having any grand schemes... but this kind of falls into the "because I want it" category. .
    The "I want it" category is one of my very favorites and I would never dissuade someone from buying anything in that category.

    the SHTF category is always trickier though, and I'm sure that's why a lot of us refrained from commenting.

    You can spend a little time thinking about it nonetheless and you will find more precision to what you want to ask.

    At home, you are unlikely to need more than one magazine to "repel boarders" or if due to a major catastrophe #riots, earthquakes etc..# you find you need to protect your home with heavier fire than normal, you will find that your home is one really large ammo, spare parts and medicine carrier; the Eagle bandoleer should do you just fine.

    When you are away from home, there can be a need for a system that carries a lot of things that you would need on or near you most of the time. The question then is: what sort of conditions do you find yourself in when away from home? are you by youself in the wilderness?, in which case the quantity and weight of the equipment has to be carefully measured -you backpack and I don't, so you would know more about that. Are you travelling by car #offroad or along well travelled roads#?, if so, your car will be doing a lot of the carrying and you probably need something very light, that's easy to drive in, that you can put on in a real hurry. Are you on foot and away from your car at some hotel? are there other folks with you that can't take good care of themselves, like children? and so on.

    While you, or anyone else for that matter, can't predict the future, you can make some pretty good guesses at what is likely to happen to you in what your circumstances will define as SHTF.

    In my case for example, the more I look at things, the more a lightweight , fast to put on, with just basic necessities so I can "get the hell out of Dodge" in hurry type of rig, would fit my needs better; plates and heavy armor don't fit the bill. What would fit the bill, I don't know yet and good classes along with the fine folks in this forum are going to help me know.

    Thinking about your circumstances in detail really helps in figuring out what you really want to ask.

    I hope that helps.

  5. #20
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    Now that we are back on track, keep it civil please. It's rare that we have to delete/lock/ban and prefer to keep it that way.

  6. #21
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    lamarbrog ,
    I'm going to show you what I have and hopefully give some reason behind it. Let me know if Ive not made something clear.








    Quote Originally Posted by lamarbrog View Post
    I'm a civilian. This will be my SHTF and fun rig.
    What does that mean to you? It's a popular term these days as is "bugging out" but few have taken the time to define either and very few have taken time to "live in" the gear they put aside to use in either. It's easy to window shop when you have no idea what you are looking for but just like a trip to the grocery store without a list... you often end up with a cart full of crap that is not good for you.

    To me, SHTF is a chaotic society like we see in Britain right now and have seen in L.A. and N.O. in the recent past. Riots in the streets, looting, and general anarchy are only a heartbeat away as we have seen many times. I won't go into it, but if you don't know the history of Argentina and have not taken a close look at what happened to them and what has been happening to the USA, you should. Most people are afraid to talk about SHTF because they fear being seen as "tin foil" guys, but yet hear we all are playing with gear that is designed for one specific reason. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about, but we all know it's there. Also, anyone on these types of boards are already on "the list" so get over it and share some solid info why don't you? :)

    My SHTF gear is designed in layers which I add depending on the status of my surroundings. The objective is to remain unseen until unavoidable then become the hard target that is not worth messing with in the eyes of the opportunistic scroat.

    LAYER ONE: EDC
    My EDC is my lowest layer and can be concealed with a t-shirt in Summer. It's a Sig P228 in a copy of the Alessi PCH IWB holster. A spare mag and light are carried on the offside.

    LAYER ONE: ELEVATED
    If the time of year allowed for it and things were starting to get spicy on the streets, I would switch my EDC to my G17 with TLR1 in a KYDEX strong side OWB light and add a 30 round P-mag in a Wilderness belt pouch on the offside. Loaded AR15 would be nearby, not necessarily carried though.

    LAYER TWO: CHEST HARNESS
    When a strong presence needs projecting, the next layer is the chest harness below. Looting is always an issue and one best solved with a coalition of neighbors willing to patrol and protect. A strong presence makes scroats look for easier targets and there will be many streets that are easier pickings than my block that would have patrols of two guys armed with full kit and carbines. If you envision SHTF as a "lone wolf" scenario you are wrong. Small communities are the only way you can get past catastrophic failures be they man made or acts of God.

    CONTENTS:
    1. (3) P-mags loaded to 28 with Wolf 62grn
    2. (4) G17 mags loaded to 16 with 147grn ball hand loads
    3. SWAT-T Tourniquet
    4. Cold Steel Tanto fixed blade (not in picture) great knife for cutting and prying.
    5. Leica 1600 LRF in hard case
    6. "Possibles" bag (petro-cotton, flint striker, red LED light, 550 cord, dental floss and needle, carmex, deet, SOG multi-tool)


    The chest harness started life as a SKDTac.com Eagle Chest Rig, Universal/SKD Version but has been re-worked alot. The cover flaps were replaced with bungee on the rifle mags, and removed on the pistol mags, which will be getting kydex molded inserts soon. The padded straps were turned into an H-harness without padding. The bottom strap was removed. If I had to start over, I would go with the HSGI double taco setup with their "bailout" H-harness, both of which did not exist a few years ago. One of the things I use most on the rig is the center pocket and map pocket. I would not own another chest rig without these, they are very useful.


    LAYER THREE: PACK
    The last layer is my "day pack" which I add when out in the woods. Currently it is a "MULE" pack from Camelbac, but will be replaced shortly with something a little bigger. Most likely the Removable Operator Pack which is a little larger but not into fullsize "3 day" pack range. I often go out in the woods shooting and practicing orienteering in a game I made up called "geo-shooting". It gives me a change to run the gear and find issues with it that do not appear on the range. The same pack would get me through many scenarios outside the city and is the end of my layering system as I'm too old and out of shape to have delusions of humping a 80lb pack for 10+ miles ever again.


    CONTENTS:
    1. 3ltr Israeli bladder from Tactical Tailor. Great price and easier to clean than a camelbac. Iodine tabs also.
    2. cleaning gear for the rifle/pistol. Always carry a GI cleaning rod for squibs!!
    3. BOK (usual suspects:SWAT-T tourniquet, IZZY-D, #14cath-needle, occlusive bandage, naso tube & gel, tape, gloves, etc) I have EMT training and know how to use it. Even if I didn't, it can't hurt if someone else try to use it. A good reason to have instructions in the BOK.
    4. land nav gear and surrounding AO 15min maps along with pages from state atlas of extended AO. Both have UTM which is the only way to nav.
    5. head, eye and hand protection. I don't normally wear gloves but do practice with them because they are a life saver in heavy brush. Gloves are what finally made me decide on "power stroke" as Hailey puts it, for handgun manipulation.
    6. (2) MREs broken down


    The important thing is to get out and use some gear outside of the range and classes to see how easy it is to "live" in!

    Good luck on your hunt.
    Last edited by oregonshooter; 29 August 2011 at 21:32.

  7. #22
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    Jim's post is arguably one of the best and most concise things I've read on this topic... I'll even add a couple items to my contingency ROP pack in addition to that list (using MACS sacks to stuff a bit of snivel gear for rain, a mini microfleece towel) in addition to a boo-boo kit, but I've been trying to match my own kit to the guidelines he mentioned for the last year or so.

    As far as how much ammunition to bring along - consider also that you can have one, or even two magazines riding on the rifle itself, and if you add a dump pouch you can snag a couple spare pre-loaded magazines if you feel you need it. A rig that holds 4, with one in the gun still adds up to 140+ rounds. I'm plenty comfortable with that, especially since most SHTF cases are more about being a hard target, and involve single digit number of rounds fired if any.
    S/F
    "There is no greater calling than to defend the life of a fellow Marine" - LtCol McClane, USMC

  8. #23
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    Hi Jim, Sorry for this off topic (can't figure out yet how to post a new one) but I liked your answer so much that I had to ask if there is a good resource for how to set up a small community for the SHTF situations? I am 52 and don't see myself running around fighting but rather defending those I love and care for. Thanks.
    Paul

  9. #24
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    I've been thinking a bit on what y'all've said about low profile, and also been thinking hard on if 4 magazines would be okay... I may have mentioned this before, but I was raised in the suburbs of a large city. I, fortunately, lived in a good area with mostly retired engineers. However, my neighborhood was surrounded by some pretty rough areas... and the thought that in a natural disaster (or just general unrest) that hordes of gang members, etc. from the bad areas would come on in to "pillage our village" was a looming thought in anyone's mind who was alert to such things.

    I live in a quiet, small town now... But I'm finding that scenario is so ingrained in my mind that it's hard to break out of it.

    While I am not yet ready to go down to 4 mags, that will probably come with time. Which is why I am thinking maybe I ought to consider something besides the chest rig that carried 6 mags, two per pouch. If I go down to 4 mags, it won't carry evenly.

    A very helpful member here alerted me to the Blue Force Gear Ten Speed chest rig. It carries six magazines, but only one per pouch. If I ever change my mind, I can't just not put magazines in the two outside pockets... they could be empty or used for something else.

    Only problem I am seeing with that is it doesn't have molle on it.... so IFAK, GP pouch, radio pouch, nalgene pouch, etc. don't have any room. So, I started looking around and came across the Esstac Bush Boar. It's a 6 mag carrier, all in one row, with molle on the front. I think this is probably going to be my best option.

    One question I have on this rig, though... split front or solid? I assume the advantage of split front is it is easy to get on and off. I'm concerned about the possibility of a zipper failing. Is that something to be worried about, or are the components in these rigs of such quality that it isn't an issue? Is a slit front with an extra $10?

    Thanks Oregon Shooter, the photographs are especially helpful.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by raven01750 View Post
    Hi Jim, Sorry for this off topic (can't figure out yet how to post a new one) but I liked your answer so much that I had to ask if there is a good resource for how to set up a small community for the SHTF situations? I am 52 and don't see myself running around fighting but rather defending those I love and care for. Thanks.
    Paul
    That's the hardest part or prepping for SHTF. It's that elephant in the room thing and you have to bee sure that people are like minded or open minded before you can breach the subject. It's identical to talking about salvation to the unsaved. Use each news reel of real world SHTFs to make passing comments on the subject. The recent IRENE floods for example... how handy a generator might be or an alternate place to ride out the storm, etc, etc. then eventually people will look at prepping as a good thing. It's already starting to go mainline, which is a good but taking it to the level of building a community is a big leap from talking about a genset. The local IDPA group seems to have the most like minded people around here. The chances of making hard set plans for such are slim before something happens, but it will fall into line if you are willing to do the planning and leading. Most people are sheep. They want to be protected but don't know how to do it without the .gov help. When SRHTF the ,gov will be overwhelmed and you will be on your own. Getting to know your neighbors is the biggest step forward. There are no easy answers to the question.

    A good source online for info that doesn't tend to go to tin foil hatery often is: http://www.thesurvivalpodcast.com/forum/

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamarbrog View Post
    I've been thinking a bit on what y'all've said about low profile, and also been thinking hard on if 4 magazines would be okay...

    One question I have on this rig, though... split front or solid? I assume the advantage of split front is it is easy to get on and off. I'm concerned about the possibility of a zipper failing. Is that something to be worried about, or are the components in these rigs of such quality that it isn't an issue? Is a slit front with an extra $10?
    The only reason to have 6 on the harness is if you plan on getting into a 6 mag firefight. You can always carry spares in your pack if you feel you need them. With one in the gun and 3 on my harness, if I haven't taken care of the threat or ran from it, I'm likely dead. That rig I have was made for double stacked mags and I ran it that way with 6 initially. HATED IT! I don't run a DP so stuffing mags and bumping is near impossible with two in a pouch. Running one in a double wide with a bungee makes it very easy. YMMV, just put some milage on it. :)

    Do you need quick on/off? Doubtful

  12. #27
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    A good point OregonShooter. I don't really need quick on and off... I'd probably be better off with the solid front, the durability, and the $10.

  13. #28
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    I know in any of my cases, that the Radio and IFAK are going to be the most valuable items carried on me in a fighting rig most of the time. Water container, binoculars, and survival kit in a pack are the next best items, followed by some snivel kit. For a heavy mag-carry system, you can use one double mag pouch for a GMRS/FRS/Amateur radio, and use an ATS medical tray to hold your blowout kit in another mag pouch. Just because a rig is pictured in an online store with magazines in one spot doesn't mean those are the only items you can fit.
    My preference is for closed-front rigs, but this is a bias from using military equipment, and trying to preserve a narrower profile so I can do tasks like drive or move through narrow passages easier. Going prone in a hurry isn't going to be comfortable either way, and when it comes to ease of putting on, chest rigs are going to take a couple seconds to get secured anyway. Anytime it has come down to grabbing a rifle, I'd prefer to have a deliberate procedure: in a purely reactionary defensive fight I'll be happy just to have a pistol of some sort.
    S/F
    "There is no greater calling than to defend the life of a fellow Marine" - LtCol McClane, USMC

  14. #29
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    6 mags... plus one in the rifle..... 210 rounds of 223 of your choice. That is a lot of rounds... I know folks are saying OMG I have that stashed under my pillow so I can feel all warm and gushy inside. If you are in a fight and you are going through your sixth Magazine.... you should have left 3 magazines ago.

    I am a firm believer in quality training. I too go back and forth on a rig set up. I do have a war belt that I haven't yet set up.

    I also have a soft carrier for my armor from work which is molle. I may have to order another one. For me I am thinking of one dedicated for shotgun and one dedicated for the AR. Both would be active shooter rigs dependent on weapon used.

    I would also like to add I was in New Orleans 3 days after Katrina... and 2 days after Ike. The people who did well were the people that had community in mind and were about helping one another. Staying put where you can and bugging out only when you have to is a good rule to follow. Plan ahead. I just went through Irene here in New England. I was without power for a day and a half ... longer than some shorter than others. I have my own well .... no water... so basics are gone.... food in the fridge needs to be taken care of. A serious generator is going in my house... I will be self sufficient. ok sorry babbling...

    I think the OP wants to avoid the trial and error approach. I know I wouldn't want to show up at a course and be over equiped and be the chuckle for the others but also want to have relavent and proper gear to cover a wide range of options if I needed to grab something

  15. #30
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    Exactly, Stryker071.

    I'm not expecting to get it right the first time... but I don't want to be looking for home plate in a football stadium, either. Just trying to get into the baseball field.

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