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  1. #31
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    I know someone who bought a $1200 Arcteryx rain suit. It does not have $1150 worth of utility over my rain suit. It does not have $1,000 worth of utility over GI goretex. I've had a number of cars that cost less than his rain suit. When people spend government money on this stuff, to me it is nothing less than fraud, waste and abuse. If you want to spend your money on it, and adopt the condescending attitude that seems to go with it, don't let me stop you. The cost/benefit ration on some gear is whacked.

  2. #32
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    You can buy a rubber rain suit and claim it does the same thing if you want.... and for some people it will.

  3. #33
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    I think that a lot of this stems from people really not knowing, or experiencing the difference. I recall my first Arc'Teryx mid layer I recieved as a gift, I had to change the size and simply couldn't believe it was $150, I couldn't understand where the "value" was. It wasn't until I wore it on a day when temps dropped into the single digits that I was amazed by how well it worked, now I have three of them and wear them all the time. I suppose it is true that, "you've got to know, to understand".

    I picked up another Arc Hardshell jacket and a pair of softshell pants on the weekend, not the LEAF line, but absolutely fantastic deals with the end of winter season sales going on.

    Cameron

  4. #34
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    I've just purchased a few commercial Arc'teryx jackets and a pair of LEAF pants. These are my first purchases of Arc'teryx gear. I just have to say you have to try them first before you can make a blanket statement about their value.

    People simply don't know what they don't know. These aren't your partners crappy range 5.11s.

  5. #35
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    I don't own anything from Arcteryx but I buy other premium brand (TAD among them): quality, R&D, place of origin all of those contribute to the street price, so does the lenght of the distribution chain and, for the LEAF line of products also the fact that the price is set that high to discourage(sp) civilian potential customer purchasing it.
    NOT MY WORDS: on another forum, Arcteryx honcho himself ask the the civillian (defined windows licker.. many of you, at that point have understood of which forum I am refering to) NOT to buy the LEAF line of products because, in a moment of high military demand, every purchase made by civilian may delay an order made by a military operator (of any level) or a militry unit. He also added that the "negotiated prices" with the .gov, .mil or .le organization is completelly different.
    At first, as a sales manager, I was absolutelly offended by those words.. but after a bit I understood: it was not a "dislike" for my hard earned money, it was a "I cannot grow too big, so I must give a better service to those that serve before the other" probably later this will change when there will be a reduction in the demand of those that goes into harms way.
    Anyway, those are just my two cents, hope nobody get offended by those words and by my poor English

    Ciao

    CV

  6. #36
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    First up, I have nothing against Arc'teryx stuff and it looks fantastic if you have the right piece of gear for the job. That said, I don't own any pieces (yet).


    Quote Originally Posted by CV1073 View Post
    I don't own anything from Arcteryx but I buy other premium brand (TAD among them): quality, R&D, place of origin all of those contribute to the street price, so does the lenght of the distribution chain and, for the LEAF line of products also the fact that the price is set that high to discourage(sp) civilian potential customer purchasing it.
    NOT MY WORDS: on another forum, Arcteryx honcho himself ask the the civillian (defined windows licker.. many of you, at that point have understood of which forum I am refering to) NOT to buy the LEAF line of products because, in a moment of high military demand, every purchase made by civilian may delay an order made by a military operator (of any level) or a militry unit. He also added that the "negotiated prices" with the .gov, .mil or .le organization is completelly different.
    At first, as a sales manager, I was absolutelly offended by those words.. but after a bit I understood: it was not a "dislike" for my hard earned money, it was a "I cannot grow too big, so I must give a better service to those that serve before the other" probably later this will change when there will be a reduction in the demand of those that goes into harms way.
    Anyway, those are just my two cents, hope nobody get offended by those words and by my poor English

    Ciao

    CV
    That sounds like a load of crap to me. If you don't want to sell to civilians, then don't. Place your stuff on .gov Mall (or whatever it's called), through ADS, etc. But don't sell your stuff through REI and then complain that civilians shouldn't be buying it.

  7. #37
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    I believe he's talking about the LEAF line exclusively and not the comercial line. I have never seen LEAF on REI.
    Ask no Guarantees, ask no security, there never was such an animal.--Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatdamngoat View Post
    I believe he's talking about the LEAF line exclusively and not the comercial line. I have never seen LEAF on REI.
    Fair enough. But I guess that still begs the question: why make it available through a civilian distributor/dealer/vendor if you don't want people to buy it? Or at least limit the supply to those civilian vendors during the "time of high demand." I've seen other vendors who have NSNs do that.

    No doubt it's more complicated than I'm making it out to be, it still seems like an odd "request."

  9. #39
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    As I recall the LEAF products could not be sold to anyone who wasn't active duty LE or military. Any dealer who violated those restrictions would be axed as an Arc'teryx dealer.

    The Swedish dealer broke that rule as soon as the first shipment arrived, but apparently Arc'teryx didn't give a shit when it came down to brass tax. I guess that attitude has expanded to the North American market as well.

    I only own some Arc'teryx headgear but I have friends who are great fans of their products and use them exclusively (not LEAF though).

    Tapatapatapatalk

  10. #40
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    I have some arc'teryx gear and it sure seems like well put together gear. Personally, my choice to buy was not because it was trendy or elitist, but because it worked extremely well to fill a need and I have a high amount of confidence in it not failing, (I love stuff that works well and lasts). I don't always think about it, but for most larger purchases I tend to buy things based on a scale of cost vs performance vs the need and associated risks... if you can visualize the chart with cost on the vertical axis and performance on the horizontal axis, for the most part there is a gradual increase in cost for gains in performance, until the last section where cost turns and accelerates upward through the roof for the last cutting edge bit of performance. And even within that last spike at the right end of the chart, there is a "sweet spot" just before the last 2% of "cutting edge" performance gain and 20-40% of cost. There is probably a very short list of items anyone needs in that last 2% absolute cutting edge, but I could see purchasing a jacket here because the cost really isn't that bad relative to the benefit.

    I buy most things trying to stay out of that last (expensive) part of the performance curve i.e. Jeans, work shirts, batteries...Costco, my watch...Cheap G-Shock, my computer...4 year old laptop, but for some things, I do choose to buy in that expensive "sweet spot" part of the curve. Things that if they fail have a large impact to my comfort or safety, like my car tires, good shoes, jackets, or our coffee maker LOL. Some of these might be select items where it is simply "life enhancing" to have something well designed and the peak of the industry (there is a certain feeling of appreciation when handling a Sage Fly Rod or Daniel Defense AR). And there is a certain feeling when you are in the woods in a downpour and your coat or boots are keeping you warm and dry.

    But it all comes down to what is important to you. Unless a person is pretty wealthy, you just can't afford buying everything to be the highest quality. I suppose a lot of people buy things to look cool to their peers because they know it is hard to come by and expensive, but I would think most on this site are buying simply because of the quality. Could I find something as good as Arc'teryx for less money, maybe. Do I want to depend on "maybe" to keep me dry on my next hike in a storm...probably not. If someone wants to buy the Leaf Arc'teryx for whatever reason, more power to them...I'm pretty sure they would probably laugh at my choice of coffee maker.

    Just remember, everything you own is trying to fall apart and decompose and you are the one trying to keep everything in working order for when you need it. The trick is knowing when it is important to pay for quality and when it is not, (and also when a lesser quality product is enough to fill the bill). For what it is worth, I always look at the LEAF gear, but I have not found a true need to buy it yet.

    One good quote my dad used to say when I would buy something frivolous like my Palm Pilot was, "that sounds like a perfect solution to a nonexistent problem".... Unfortunately once in a while he also said to a young me "G-Damit...if you had another brain, it would be lonesome"

  11. #41
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    Arc'teryx has definitely made the case that they are producing superior pieces, and I will concede that. The trick that is going on here in consumer markets is luxury, I am paying more for something that is marginally better than its' competition. Lets take my Atom LT for example, the features that separate the atom LT from the other jackets I was considering made the extra cost worthwhile(in some cases the jacket cost the same as the competition). I have been using dead bird equipment for 5+ years alongside other brands that I have really come to like(not saying that in a hipster way) and have watched them grow wildly popular, some things I will very likely go to Arc'teryx for, and others I won't.

    While I have seen the brand grow astronomically in popularity(like 40% increase in revenue last year), they have made good and bad decisions, as any business would. Good news is that they haven't started shopping around with factories in order to lower costs(ahem TNF), they haven't overbranded (TNF again),they haven't created too many gucci items(patagonia).
    In my experience in the outdoor retail world you have a progression of buyers:

    Experimental-These are the people that are willing to try out your brand. In relation to dead bird, they started with climbing harnesses and climbing equipment, to which I say kudos to any company who has the balls to make equipment that people will put their lives in using experimental processes and materials.

    Founding-This step is when you form the base of your buyers, the ones that outside of a massive implosion(ahem merrell or nearly anything wolverine intl touches), they will buy from you as long as you are putting out a good product regardless of natural booms, busts, or popularity issues. This is when Arc'teryx was developing the pieces that we know Arc'teryx by today, shells, packs, synthetic midlayers.

    Booms- This is where arcteryx is now, this is when the annoying customers come out, the "Arcteryx or nothing" customer, it is important for the industry to disregard this customer as much as possible and not to start producing things oriented for them, unless you are just interested in making a shit ton of money(TNF again). The company has just gotten crazy popular over the last 6 years and has given the company the ability to go into new markets and heavier into some investments, reinvesting in their line of gloves, expanding their running and base layer lineup, LEAF has been around for a while with the Bravo pack, knee pads, and all. Now the massive expansion of their LEAF clothing line and bringing more pieces onto the LEAF side and vice versa is just a testament to their recent success.

    Busts- Yet to happen to Arc'teryx, will be interesting to see how they handle it. Hopefully they fair better than someone like Merrell, who seems to be in a forever flat stall.

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