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  1. #1
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    Cool Arc'teryx Leaf Consumer "tactical" bandwagoners

    I consider myself to be a fairly knowledgeable consumer. I have watched trends come and go, and who hops on the bandwagon with a new line of product to fill the niche', and to try and get a piece of the action. That is awesome the awesomeness of the free market, and capitalism.. However, from watching these trends, I have noticed one thing... they come and they go... But when it comes to outdoor gear, prices generally are expensive.. depending on the company. Arc'Teryx makes great gear, don't get me wrong... and gear that has a designated purpose, typically is a little more pricey... But to charge 500$ for a backpack that was designed by Arc'Teryx, and manufactured by Propper, for the Marine Corps, and then also made by arcTeryx almost in the same manner is absurd. The ILBE can be baought online, for 130-150 $. Same design, same build quality... The tshirts sold, 170$ for a pack of three... and to be quite honest, everything in the Arc'Teryx Leaf Collection is at a 300% markup... Great gear, don't get me wrong, but for the prices they are charging, should be made out of gold and Platinum thread, and should piss for ya in the darkest of nights.... Any thoughts?
    2 is 1....1 is 0....

  2. #2
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    I'm also an avid backpacker. The prices for their backpacking/hiking/climbing gear is almost laughably expensive, and although outstanding in quality, the same quality gear can be had for 1/2 or less. Outside of tactical gear, recreational user's of Arc'teryx gear are usually people who like to flaunt the fact that they can spend $100 on $5.00 worth of gear.

    FT

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    Exclusivity has its price.
    C. Smith

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    I'm also an avid backpacker. The prices for their backpacking/hiking/climbing gear is almost laughably expensive, and although outstanding in quality, the same quality gear can be had for 1/2 or less. Outside of tactical gear, recreational user's of Arc'teryx gear are usually people who like to flaunt the fact that they can spend $100 on $5.00 worth of gear.

    FT
    I think you're right on target with this statement. +1000

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by csmith View Post
    Exclusivity has its price.
    So does insanity.
    FT

  6. #6
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    I have had many jacket that have not held as well as my alpha jacket. Though it's not a leaf product in in civillian black lol. My wife was just happy I stopped wearing hunting jackets out of the house.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for reading the post. Does anyone have any companies that make good gear that do not have the exorbitant markups? One that I have found was AR500 for plate and plate carriers....
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  8. #8
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    Personally I have an addiciton to a brand that is just as expensive as Arc'teryx (Triple Aught Design), and I don't mind paying the extra money for the gear at all. For the most part I find that their products, and this includes Arc'teryx, are much better made, and hold up longer than many of the lower priced companies such as 5.11 or knock off brands like LA Police Gear. Also, I don't mind paying more when I know exactly how they will fit me after being washed and abused a bit, and to know that they will hold up to that abuse. Your argument is kind of like saying "Why pay more money for a Cadilac when you can go and buy Kia for less." And let's not forget that you're also paying for labor. A Canadian factory worker get's paid a fair wage for their work. I'd wager that the workers that sew a Condor jacket don't, and they pass those savings on to you.
    Ask no Guarantees, ask no security, there never was such an animal.--Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatdamngoat View Post
    Your argument is kind of like saying "Why pay more money for a Cadilac when you can go and buy Kia for less."
    Nope...not at all. So as to not take the thread off of AR related items, I won't do it. But when it comes to backpacking/climbing/mountaineering gear, I could list at least 20 companies that make comparable gear, and they're mostly American companies, that manufacture here. I'm comparing a Porsche to a Porsche, not a Caddilac to a KIA. And if I can buy a Porsche for 100K, and you wish to pay 500K for the same Porsche from a different dealer, because the Tag's on the car are different, then be my guest..

    FT

  10. #10
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    Actually, It comes down to the fact that I have bought and used gear from a number of different outdoor companies, from backpacking, to kayaking, to general base layers to backpacks. I agree you get what you pay for... I can see paying 70$ to 80 for 3 good baselayer shirts from REI, or Patagonia etc.. but 170 is just outlandish and over priced when you can buy them elsewhere.. essentially this came to light when I was looking into a replacement backpack. I looked at the 500$ Leaf, then did some research, and the LEAF Pack is the same design, designed by arc'teryx as the Marine corps ILBE Marpat pack.... for 140 dollars shipped, complete, with all attachments.... 140$ -> 500.... big difference.... and both will wear equally the same on body and over time.... just saying... bandwagoning by Arc'teryx, actually makes me want to find companies that make the same article for function, that lasts equally and performs equally or better. for most hiking camping outdoors lifestyles, other products can fille the role vs. paying the 300% markup..
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  11. #11
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    I agree. Most people won't need everything that the LEAF line is offering. But to think that the REI and Patagonia offerings are the same as the LEAF offerings is slightly disingenuous. Will REI's "performance crews" wick sweat away for $30? Sure. But the $99 crew from the LEAF line is made of merino wool which not only wicks sweat, but since it is an organic fabric it is naturally "no melt" and it also can be worn longer due to merino’s natural ability to stop odor (which is why they have been making cycling jersey’s out of merino forever). Do you need no melt for $60 more? Perhaps not. But if someone decides to buy one because they do need that capability, certainly they can't be decried as just another "band wagon" purchaser. As for the pack, it was designed by Arc’teryx, but it was built by Proper. Not that it won’t serve you well, because I’m sure it will, but when I was an 0311 I tried to replace everything I could that was issued by the Marines with my own gear because I did not like the quality of the Marine Corps issued pieces. If I could have gotten away with buying my own $500 pack from someone I knew was quality, I certainly would have.
    Ask no Guarantees, ask no security, there never was such an animal.--Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

  12. #12
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    "It doesn't cost too much, the truth is, you can't afford it!" ~ J.E.Shoaff

    The reality is that I have five Arc'teryx jackets, six pants, multiple mid layers, and a couple of their packs. I find them to be priced reasonably, but typically wait to purchase their products on sale. Quality is not really important in clothes worn to the coffee shop or the shooting range, but outdoor/hunting/tactical gear needs to perform in extreme conditions. I would always pay a products worth to get a product that will actually perform. I have been extreme conditions and had numerous products fail due to poor quality, but I have never had an Arc'teryx product fail yet.

    I have watched guys with jackets from company X that are "just as good as Arc'teryx, without the hype" leak, rip and generally fail.

    You reminded me I should have bought that Drac jacket from Mission Ready Equipment, when they were on sale last week... damn.

    Cameron
    Last edited by Cameron; 4 December 2012 at 11:34.

  13. #13
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    To understand the cost of a premium garment it's important to understand that the actual garment does not equal the cost of the materials plus the labor to produce it.

    Commodity garment manufacturers simply begin with established fit pattern, or perhaps they cut up a competitors garment to reverse engineer its panel patterns. It costs them very little. Another option is to simply go to a sew shop and work with the sewers to tweak a house pattern, making a garment that looks different but not really performing any anatomic or material driven design.

    Premium brands invest in design talent, development and testing programs as well as process and material management programs. These are all expensive endeavors that result in garments that are truly designed for their purpose using custom made patterns, materials specifically selected for their performance qualities by the design team, processes to monitor the quality of raw materials and make sure the Gore-Tex Pro Shell material you're paying for isn't actually "Gortex" from NichinWa Industries.

    You're paying to employ an in-house design team that came up with the designs that are likely reverse engineered by some of the commodities manufacturers that you favor.

    You're paying for innovations in design and materials that contribute to your safety and/or enjoyment.

    You're paying for the designers to actually pattern a garment for its intended use. (Why do some hoods droop down into your face and others don't?)

    You're paying for people that can source the right materials or even work with vendors to develop materials that don't exist for a given purpose.

    You're paying for the development of manufacturing processes to support novel designs. Tooling is not cheap.

    You're paying for the designers to fly to the factories and spend a few weeks walking sewers through the seasons new stitching patterns.

    You're paying for small lot manufacturing so the company can assure quality and make incremental improvements.

    You're paying someone to fly to the factories (usually in Asia) to meet with their manufacturing partners and do QA.

    You're paying for QA by an exacting company that would rather toss a garment with 1mm of stitch runout rather than risk a garment failure in the field.

    You're paying to provide sample garments to sponsored athletes for developmental testing.

    You're paying for premium materials such as Gore fabrics, threads, etc...

    You're paying for premium garment findings (zippers, sipper pulls, Cord-locs, bungee, etc.)

    You're paying for sales reps that go to shops and explain product features to sales staff so they can help you select the best garment for your use.

    The list goes on.

    Bargain brands do not go to these lengths in their product development or production. That is how they keep their costs and prices low. They do not innovate.

    Premium garment and hardgoods manufacturers are keenly aware of their pricing. Margins might seem exsessive, but look at the market they serve. This space is at the mercy of seasonal demand and style fads. Shitty winter? Nothing sells. Purple is the hot color? Not next year... You're paying a retailer to take an inventory risk in buying a bunch of garments that may or may not sell. All of these things are part of the price you pay each time you pick up a jacket from a premium brand.

    Pay what you can afford for your clothes, but don't think for a moment that the performance garment brands you can't afford are over priced. They are expensive. But, rarely over priced.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameron View Post
    "It doesn't cost too much, the truth is, you can't afford it!" ~ J.E.Shoaff

    The reality is that I have five Arc'teryx jackets, six pants, multiple mid layers, and a couple of their packs. I find them to be priced reasonably, but typically wait to purchase their products on sale. Quality is not really important in clothes worn to the coffee shop or the shooting range, but outdoor/hunting/tactical gear needs to perform in extreme conditions. I would always pay a products worth to get a product that will actually perform. I have been extreme conditions and had numerous products fail due to poor quality, but I have never had an Arc'teryx product fail yet.

    I have watched guys with jackets from company X that are "just as good as Arc'teryx, without the hype" leak, rip and generally fail.

    You reminded me I should have bought that Drac jacket from Mission Ready Equipment, when they were on sale last week... damn.

    Cameron
    Great Post Cameron. Hope to see you post some good pics here as well as the other boards I see you on.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    Great Post Cameron. Hope to see you post some good pics here as well as the other boards I see you on.
    Thanks, you made me look for an Arc'teryx photo...
    Last edited by Cameron; 4 January 2013 at 18:17.

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