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  1. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by velocity2006 View Post
    Finally made it to Yellowstone. I could see moving to Montana permanently if property wasn't so expensive.




    It's both modern and primordial at the same time. Eerie in a way. Not sure that I'd want to live there, setting on top of one of the most awesome volcano's in the world. Talk about going full nuclear.
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  2. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    I believe it's 4-6 minutes, depending on how much heavy breathing you're doing. Thankfully, I don't know the exact number, but I can typically get 3-4 rides in a dunker with one before I need to swap out for a new one. I will say this...it saved my bacon twice on my last re-qual/currency training last summer. I think it may have saved one of the instructor's bacon once, as well, as I got hung up and he was more freaked out when I surfaced than I was. I think I may have been in a position where he couldn't "right" me to get me out of the water, but since I had air, I problem-solved and eventually got myself untangled from the mess that was hanging me up.
    Not having flown anything but a C172, this may sound like a stupid question, but I wonder why Mil rotary wing and fixed fighter aircraft don't have a detachable operating rebreather handy for the pilot. It would give you more time in deeper water, say up to about 120 feet. Also, in the rare instance that when you dunk that vehicle, if the impact caused a massive fuel leak burning on the top of the water, it would give the pilot, if physically able, almost unlimited time to swim out away from the fire above, basically only limited by depth and any injuries the pilot might have sustained in the crash. In other words, if you're not a "crushing" depth, or in freezing water and face hypothermia within 3 -5 minutes, the pilot would have plenty of time to regroup his/her thoughts, gain their bearing, assess the predicament and "casually" swim away.

    FT
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  3. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    I believe it's 4-6 minutes, depending on how much heavy breathing you're doing. Thankfully, I don't know the exact number, but I can typically get 3-4 rides in a dunker with one before I need to swap out for a new one. I will say this...it saved my bacon twice on my last re-qual/currency training last summer. I think it may have saved one of the instructor's bacon once, as well, as I got hung up and he was more freaked out when I surfaced than I was. I think I may have been in a position where he couldn't "right" me to get me out of the water, but since I had air, I problem-solved and eventually got myself untangled from the mess that was hanging me up.
    It seemed like a super important piece of gear. That along with a sharp knife! Staying calm in that scenario seems to rule the day. Does the dunker put you in upside down?
    The best way to survive a violent encounter is to be the one inflicting the most violence.

  4. #1459
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    It's both modern and primordial at the same time. Eerie in a way. Not sure that I'd want to live there, setting on top of one of the most awesome volcano's in the world. Talk about going full nuclear.
    Fairly sure if it went the entire west coast would be fucked lol.

  5. #1460
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    Not having flown anything but a C172, this may sound like a stupid question, but I wonder why Mil rotary wing and fixed fighter aircraft don't have a detachable operating rebreather handy for the pilot. It would give you more time in deeper water, say up to about 120 feet. Also, in the rare instance that when you dunk that vehicle, if the impact caused a massive fuel leak burning on the top of the water, it would give the pilot, if physically able, almost unlimited time to swim out away from the fire above, basically only limited by depth and any injuries the pilot might have sustained in the crash. In other words, if you're not a "crushing" depth, or in freezing water and face hypothermia within 3 -5 minutes, the pilot would have plenty of time to regroup his/her thoughts, gain their bearing, assess the predicament and "casually" swim away.

    FT
    I may be misunderstanding what you're saying, but that's exactly what this is, a "detachable" (ie, it's on your person) bottle of air. Again, I've been very fortunate to not have to test this in real life, but even in a trainer, there's very little time or mental ability to think about grabbing something extra to take with you, so having it on your person is the best way. Helos, Ospreys, and E-2/C-2 guys all have these bottles. Jet guys, if they're still in their seat when in the water for some reason, can still breath normally from their oxygen mask, even when underwater. If they take their seat pan with them, I believe emergency O2 comes with them (specifically for ejecting at high-altitudes).

    Keep in mind, you're not underwater for very long, so you still have plenty of air to do what you're saying. We also train to clear any fire that may be burning on the surface. A few months ago, one of our West Coast birds went in the water. Fortunately everyone made it out. One of the pilots got hung up, but when you watch the video, you can that she's still not down there for more than a minute before she pops up.

    The scary part is if you're trapped and the airframe starts to sink. I don't like to think about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
    Staying calm in that scenario seems to rule the day. Does the dunker put you in upside down?
    Indeed, and easier said than done. Yes, the dunker can roll, which they do for helo training, but it can also stay up right for fixed-wing training. I really hate rolling upside down, especially in a chlorine pool. It's less painful in the salt-water pool they have at Miramar, but still annoying.

  6. #1461
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    I think we're talking two different things. A bottle of air with a limited supply - I've seen "SpareAir" brand with 5 or 7 minutes of air, vs. a rebreather, used in HALO's, underwater, etc..which will provide unlimited air, as long as it's operating, by scrubbing the bad stuff you exhale and recycling the breathable air back into your lungs. A typical bottle of air, similar to an open circuit dive tank is going to have a short duration of air, when it's out, it's out. A rebreather is closed circuit, scrubs the C02, and can last (the sport diving type, anyway) up to six hours or so on a canister of air, with the advantage of also moisturizing and warming the air. I don't know what the military has in it's bag of tricks nowdays, but generally they aren't small, about 3/5 the size of a standard single tank open circuit type scuba tank and regulator. So, you can't stash it in a bag, but could find somewhere in a chopper to mount it. Maybe it's not really feasible, but if I flew over water on a regular basis, it would up my comfort level up a notch knowing I had up to 6 or more hours of air, while trying to untangle myself underwater, than a 5 or 6 minute supply.
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  7. #1462
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    I think we're talking two different things. A bottle of air with a limited supply - I've seen "SpareAir" brand with 5 or 7 minutes of air, vs. a rebreather, used in HALO's, underwater, etc..which will provide unlimited air, as long as it's operating, by scrubbing the bad stuff you exhale and recycling the breathable air back into your lungs. A typical bottle of air, similar to an open circuit dive tank is going to have a short duration of air, when it's out, it's out. A rebreather is closed circuit, scrubs the C02, and can last (the sport diving type, anyway) up to six hours or so on a canister of air, with the advantage of also moisturizing and warming the air. I don't know what the military has in it's bag of tricks nowdays, but generally they aren't small, about 3/5 the size of a standard single tank open circuit type scuba tank and regulator. So, you can't stash it in a bag, but could find somewhere in a chopper to mount it. Maybe it's not really feasible, but if I flew over water on a regular basis, it would up my comfort level up a notch knowing I had up to 6 or more hours of air, while trying to untangle myself underwater, than a 5 or 6 minute supply.
    No, I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that, practically, spending the time to find such a thing isn't worth the effort when you can just put the regulator you already have attached to you in your mouth. Trust me, as long as you're conscious, you're not spending much time underwater. And if you have the time (and sometimes, skill), you can actually land up-right and potentially get out before it rolls, though that's usually unusual.

    I know this is a pic thread, so forgive the OT, but here's a video of a dunker in action. You can see how fast everyone comes out, and for this video, you can see no one even has air. The whole video is actually pretty good at showing the progression of the pool day of the 2-day training.



    For some reason it won't start playing at the saved point, so fast-forward to 3:01.

    You'll also notice one guy on the second ride who got lost and still managed to get out. Also fun to watch the riders have their heart-rates start to go up right before they hit the water. My heart-rate goes up when watching the video even today, and I've done the training at least 6 times.

    I really hate the dunker.

  8. #1463
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    I hate water operations, so I can see why you hate the dunker. Not everyone can stay calm in those situations.

    Back in the day, I was part of one of the first classes at the academy here to do submerged vehicle rescues. It sucked, and I realized that I couldn't do it.

  9. #1464
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    I hate water operations, so I can see why you hate the dunker. Not everyone can stay calm in those situations.

    Back in the day, I was part of one of the first classes at the academy here to do submerged vehicle rescues. It sucked, and I realized that I couldn't do it.
    Confidence courses, even those less frequent and "high tech" should be mandatory for all first responders, and all crew members of mil rotary and fixed wing aircraft.

    In '95 I was visiting some family in E. Kentucky, and decided to go off on a trip to visit a friend of mine. Fortunately my kids and ex-wife stayed behind. Rains had been torrential. I was driving my Jeep and was rounding a corner when the road caved from under me. There was a river about 10 feet down, and about 10 or 15 ft. deep. The rain and high water had washed the earth out from under the pavement. I went in and under extremely quickly and in utter confusion, remember thinking WTF on a galactic scale. Just by the grace of God did my headlights stay on and I could see a couple of feet out. I was able to roll the window down, undo my belt, and swim out and up. Why I didn't die that night, I have no idea, nor did anyone else. I do credit various "scare and shock" training scenario's that somehow, beyond my understanding, allowed me to keep my cool. My Jeep didn't fare as well and they pulled it out the next morning. Gawkers standing around didn't know I was the driver, and were offering each other's opinion as to whether I had died, how they would have handled it, etc... Bottom line, scary training is good.

    FT
    Last edited by FortTom; 15 August 2017 at 08:06.
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  10. #1465
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    Oh nevermind.

    Have some critters. They think I'm a great cook.

    Last edited by Joelski; 13 August 2017 at 13:54.
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  11. #1466
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    Continuing to stay off-topic, so feel free to split. My apologies, but UW's and FT's posts made me think of this stuff...

    I hate water operations, so I can see why you hate the dunker. Not everyone can stay calm in those situations.

    Back in the day, I was part of one of the first classes at the academy here to do submerged vehicle rescues. It sucked, and I realized that I couldn't do it.
    A lot of it is certainly mental. I love the water, I just hate being upside down in the water, specifically with no air, and half the dunker rides are done that way. But, every time I go for training, I do gain that sense of "training calm" that FT is talking about. On my last water survival training session (last summer), we had a sticky window on the dunker and I was right next to it. I'm not even sure how the shorter students could even reach it to release it, as it was a stretch for me. When I did grab the handle to pull, nothing happened. I couldn't get it to come free. I'm fully extended and rocking it back and forth. Fortunately, I was on the bottle, and that thing brings on immediate calm, if you let it. So there were are, all waiting for me to get this stupid window open and I see the diver staring at me. So I give him the shoulder shrug and a thumbs down.

    He does nothing.

    So I reach up again and rock the window back and forth and it still doesn't come out. Then another shoulder shrug. By this time, I'm thinking of releasing my harness and just going at it directly, since I can see (which isn't always the case, since we're usually blind-folded). Finally he comes over and yanks on it a couple of times and it falls free. And off we all go out the window. But that was an important lesson to learn to trust that bottle and relax and problem solve.

    Other times aren't so calming. My last three visits to water survival have "gifted" me with malfunctioning flotation gear. Awesome. The last time, both my lobes wouldn't hold air for more than 90 seconds. So there I am, trying to float around in the dark, trying to get in a raft, swim to the rescue hook, get hooked up by the "helicopter," all while constantly trying to tread water AND keep air in my lobes. And I don't naturally float with all that gear on. Man that sucked...but at least I had stuff to put on the course critique!

  12. #1467
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    Okay, to at least keep the non-firearm/people vibe going... Don't think I've posted this, so here we go. Or if I have, then oh well. Circa 1997.


  13. #1468
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    Nice F-14 shot.

  14. #1469
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    From my walk around tonight.


  15. #1470
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    From my walk around tonight.

    I dig it. Where?

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