CCW Scenario, how would you handle it?

[NCM]

This past weekend, I learned one of my drinking buddies/acquaintances was involved in an attempted car jacking. That might not be a totally correct characterization. Let my paint the picture.

My buddy will be hence forth known as Mr.X and their were two perps.

Mr.X entered the local Academy store on County Line Road here in Jackson MS. It is in an older shopping development with a Toys R Us as the other major anchor store in the strip mall. Anyway, Mr.X was walking out of the store after his purchase to his work truck. Mr.X is a subcontractor usually doing home developments. He has a old generic pickup with a tool compartment style bed as a work truck. Most of his gear is stowed except for things like ladders and misc items such as extension cords. It is 3pm in broad daylight. There must be 100-150 cars in the large parking lot of the shopping development.

So Mr.X sees two local yutes breaking into the cab of his truck which contain the tools needed for his livelihood. Mr.X isn't really a gun guy, doesn't CCW, but is really big into martial arts and MMA. He also has a very slight anger management problem.

Mr.X runs up to the cab; the driver's window is down. Two yutes are in the cab trying to hot wire the truck and don't notice him. Mr.X cocks back his best right punch and knocks the would be driver clear over into the other yutes lap on the passenger side. A few curses by both sides and several other powerful punches by Mr.X cause the yutes to flee out the passenger door into the lot and thus escape.

My scenario is this. What if it where you who saw the perps trying to drive off with your vehicle? Keep in mind this vehicle, while replaceable is going to cause a loss of income while you replace all the tools you might loose for your line of work. Suppose you are able to sneak up on the two crackhead yutes. Then what? Draw, order them out? Shoot to kill? What if you get and arm(s) inside the open drivers window and they start to drive? Please indicate relevant state use of force laws if your response requires it.

I intend this as a discussion and thought exercise; not looking for right or wrong answers. Just trying to provoke thought.

Thoughts?

[OfcPowder]

Kudos to Mr. X for layin the smack down...

I would likely have drawn down on them (I always carry) and given them verbal commands. More than likely they would do what I say and I'd yell for someone to call 911 and to tell the dispatcher I was an off-duty officer requesting priority backup, or call myself via speakerphone on my cell. If having someone else call, make sure you tell them to give a description of the perps and ME (being the officer).

If the perps flee, great, let them. I'll call 911 myself and give a description but I sure ain't chasin' the turds. If they start reaching for something or lunge at me, I've carry plenty of ammo to go around. Keep in mind I'm off duty, I have no less-lethal weapons other than the "fist of fury" . So if I feel my safety was in danger due to an attack or the perp reaching for something, I would feel justified in letting off a few rounds. No warning shots, those aren't permitted, and they are a waste of ammunition.

If he continues to just hot wire the vehicle and does not follow my commands and does not make any aggressive moves, then I may open the door and either rip him out or give a few hand strikes. I will be sure to make a huge scene to garner the attention of anyone watching.

The last thing to remember, is it is just property. Yeah, it would suck and make life tough for a while. But, I still need to go home at the end of the night (even if it means taking the bus).

[rebelEMPIRE]

I'd first alert 911 about my vehicle being broken into and that the perpatrators are still within the vehicle, trying to hot wire it. I'd give them detailed descriptions about the location, vehicle, the occupants, and myself.

I'm only 160 lbs with hardly any hand to hand combat skills to take on two people simultaneously. So, my best bet would be to stall the perpatrators for as long as possible, by making small talk with them--such as assuming they lost their key and are having trouble starting up the vehicle. Of course, I would keep a safe distance away.

If it came to a critical point in which they begin to find out what sort of situation they are facing, I will draw my weapon and order them out of the vehicle. If they are already out of the vehicle at that point, I would order them on the ground.

Odds are, they probably will not comply and make a run for it. If they run, that's fine by me. They'll eventually be caught. If they come at me with a purpose, then I'd fire a few shots with deadly intent; of course, it's a lot easier to aim at the main body than the knees. =P

-rebelEMPIRE

[Army Chief]

The central issues in play here are (a) the level of threat, and (b) your ability to respond proportionately. That makes this a tough scenario to evaluate on the basis of the facts, since each case is likely to be unique, and subtle details may well differentiate a justified shoot from murder if it comes to that.

I believe that OfcPower offered a competent game plan, and accounted for most of these variables. For my part, I would reiterate that when Mr. X first noticed the perps activity, he was in no immediate danger. At that point, it is simply a case of vandalism or attempted theft. Granted, things can progress quickly, but the degree to which you (or Mr. X) are complicit in escalating the situation is significant because no confrontation was really necessary here to avoid a situation wherein deadly force might be authorized.

Are you ever justified to shoot someone because they are in the process of damaging/stealing your property? Not really. Does that mean that it would be premature to even draw a weapon? Perhaps, but again it depends upon the situation. The problem here is that once the initial confrontation takes place, you have no idea whether the offenders are going to cut and run, or produce weapons of their own. In terms of a proportionate response, that leaves a pretty wide expanse between a minor league butt kicking and two to the chest.

Again, the central issue here isn't the property; it is "do these guys present a legitimate threat to my health and safety?" If you feel threatened to the degree that you are ready to respond with deadly force, then you need to clearly be able to articulate to a jury of your peers (a) how you got to that point, (b) why it couldn't have reasonably been avoided, and (c) what you did to try to keep things under control -- as opposed to "forcing the situation" toward an inevitable and violent conclusion. Trouble is, since we can never know the full extent of the perp's intentions in advance, we can never say that we are justified in approaching them with a "get out of my effing truck or I'll blow your #@* heads off" ultimatum. That simply isn't proportionate.

The thinking man's response would be to observe from a safe distance and call for assistance, taking note of details (and maybe even taking photos) while you wait. The man-of-action response would be to approach, announce that you are prepared to take whatever action is required to safeguard your property and your life, and keep a weapon at the ready. The hothead response would be to march over to the scene, mouth off and make threats, and then wave a gun in their faces, regardless or what they did or said by way of response. What might be the most satisfying on the scene could well be the most difficult to defuse in a court of law, so a bit of restraint might go a long way. That doesn't mean that you let a couple of thugs drive away with your livelihood, but it does mean that if you end up pulling a trigger, it needs to be because it was your last recourse, and they simply gave you no other way out of the situation.

AC

[OfcPowder]

I've been on my department for over 4 years, and I'm still in the "man of action" mode. Although I must say I SLOWLY but surely am turning to the "thinking man" approach. That's why I love this forum, many different view points.

[rebelEMPIRE]

While sleeping last night, I drempt about the scenario (yea, go ahead and laugh). It didn't occur to me at the time the exact location of where I parked. If I parked near the entrance of the shopping center, where many people are present, I would not engage in a confrontation and let things unfold as they are. Shooting with a crowd present may pose collateral damage.

On the other hand, if I parked relatively a safe distance from a crowd, where a crowd is unlikely to gather at the immediate vicinity, I would honestly confront the suspects as I would in my above post.

And Army Chief, your analytical prowess is quite amazing. From your post I would assume you're the thinking-man. But what exactly would you do if you were in that situation, since you have not explicitly stated your course of action?

-rebelEMPIRE.

[Army Chief]

I'm a careeer soldier: while I aspire to be analytical, I also know what it is to channel emotional energy when responding to a threat. For this reason, while I can state with some certainty that I would strive to maintain clarity of thought ...

... I would definitely act.

AC

[alt154shiver]

...to observe from a safe distance and call for assistance, taking note of details (and maybe even taking photos) while you wait.

This.

Honestly. I am off of active duty and have no law enforcement jurisdiction in the civilian sector. Although it would be satisfying to draw down on them and assist in the association in their minds of actions and consequences, they can have the car. It's LoJaked anyway. Snap some pictures and give the police a good description and direction of the individuals.

This will admittedly grate on my nerves to no end...

Now if my rifle we're in the trunk... well if my rifle is in the trunk I'm never out of eyesight of my car for more than a few minutes... Call it military brainwashing, but something about leaving weapons in a vehicle without a watch on them.... irks me.

[OfcPowder]

If I left a rifle in the trunk, I would certainly act. This ups the chances of me firing a few rounds if they try to take off, because the threat level to the general public has now increased significantly. This is why I would not leave a rifle in the trunk if I was going shopping.

[Army Chief]

My preferred means of intervention involves approaching with an almost unsettling calm, and establishing a rapport along these lines: "Good afternoon, gentlemen, Unfortunately, we have a situation here in that the vehicle you are tampering with is mine. The police have been called, and in fairness, I have to inform you that I am armed. In the interest of all of us making it to dinner tonight as free and uninjured men, I'm willing to give you 30 seconds to vacate the scene. I leave that decision up to you. If you go, I will not pursue you. If you stay, please understand that your actions will not go unchallenged, and you will not be leaving this parking lot in my truck."

Delivered in a measured, yet resolute, fashion, this sort of approach would likely unnerve the average delinquent who by nature is looking for an easy score. At no point along the way did I indicate what how far I was willing to go, nor did I curse at them or insult them as individuals. I simply made it clear that I had the means to intervene, and that I was not going to watch them drive away. If the situation escalates beyond this point, then it will be in response to their decision-making, and not mine; after all, I gave them a out.

Now, it's true that they may be strung out on drugs and not especially clear-headed, but again, the only "line in the sand" I've drawn here is that they won't be leaving in my truck. That gives me a wide range of proportional actions to pursue (i.e. cutting a tire or asking a passerby in another old truck to block them in) before we ever get to the point of firing a weapon in a public place. Again, all of this is highly conjectural, but the point is to go with an approach that preserves as many options as possible -- for them, and for me.

AC

[oregonshooter]

Approach cab like POI stop and tell them to GTFO with hand on gun but not drawn. They will see the body language and likely vacate.

Snapping a picture sounds great, but I know that the amps are gonna be flowing when I see scroats trying to steal my vehicle and I'm not obligated to watch them drive off in my state.

[Army Chief]

Not playing devil's advocate here, oregonshooter -- and a belated welcome to WEVO, by the way -- but the obvious question resulting from your chosen response is this: what if they don't vacate?

Are you then going to draw your weapon?

Continue making threats?

Shoot at them?

The problem with immediately introducing the weapon into the situation in a threatening manner is that you become the aggressor, and are effectively backing them into a corner. That's one thing if you are a sworn peace officer with the power and authority to detain, but quite another if you're a private citizen in a parking lot altercation. More to the point, cornered people are desperate people, and desperate people do desperate/stupid things. If these two weren't especially rational to begin with, then the chances that you've just escalated a property dispute to a deadly force situation are very, very high. Are you really prepared to kill two people over an old truck?

Now, just to be clear, it isn't my purpose to take aim at your response, and I appreciate your honesty. I'm simply trying to underscore that there are just too many variables in play here to know how any of us would react. The only thing I know for sure is that, if you let your passions (and anger) take over, it is a very short step from getting your man-card punched to totally losing control and ending up as a convicted felon.

Remember, it isn't what happens to you in life that gets you into trouble; it's how you respond to it. If you are armed in a situation like this, it may give you a bit of added confidence to intervene, but it also exponentially increases the importance of a cool-headed, proportional response, lest you end up looking like an unstable gun nut spoiling for a fight. If it comes to it, you can be sure that the lawyers retained by your victim's families are going to paint it that way. Don't make their job an easy one.

AC

[oregonshooter]

Not playing devil's advocate here, oregonshooter -- and a belated welcome to WEVO, by the way -- but the obvious question resulting from your chosen response is this: what if they don't vacate?

The problem with immediately introducing the weapon into the situation in a threatening manner is that you become the aggressor...

Well to start, I have not introduced a gun into the situation unless you consider having a gun me daily doing so? I stated the gun is still in the holster with with me gripping it for that particular reason. This is done discreetly and people passing by would not likely notice or know what the posture meant without seeing an actual gun.

I have not set them up to respond in their own "self defense" because they are not at gunpoint or being threatened with a weapon. The cat is out of the bag that I am armed by posturing most likely and scroats are likely going to be able to read that posturing as me ready to defend myself should they decide to do harm to me, but the general public is oblivious to this stuff.

They are not cornered as the OP said they had the passenger door open and he was contacting from the drivers side, thus an easy escape route which is what you want to leave any BG.

I don't want to hold them, I want them to leave (without my property) which IS my right still.

What do I do if they won't leave? Tell anyone passing by to call the cops, that these two scroats are stealing my truck.

If they really are dumb enough to come towards an armed man thinking he is bluffing, they get a hit of prepper spray persuasion that is on my keychain. The only reason I carry PS is to try to prevent killing stupid people.

If a man continues his attack after being warned to leave, that the cops are on the way, after I spray him for stepping towards me, then HE has escalated the theft to deadly force not I.

I gave him every chance to get away without harm to him.

As un-PC as it is, I don't believe we are required to be victims and I will act accordingly.

I know of a case in Phoenix, OR. where a scroat walked into an old couples house and ate from their fridge while the cops were coming. The old guy had a gun and warned the dirtbag to leave but the guy never threatened him, so he just sat there eating from the fridge till his 3 hots & a cot came.

If the guys in my truck decided to do the same, so be it. My property did not just leave and they go to jail without a shot fired. Just don't put me in fear of my life while you are stealing my stuff. You can have my stuff, but not my life and if I fear for it, I'm 100% justified in defending it to the point of deadly force.


PS. Thanks for the welcome! Let me know if there is a "HI I'm JIM" thread I have to post to, I didn't see one."

[Army Chief]

Good post! I'm certainly not the arbiter of what may be considered right or wrong here, nor is that the purpose of what has become something of a shared mental exercise, but your explanations provide a useful context. Given our starting point, I think it was important to "complete the journey" with precisely the kind of follow-up that you offered.

As stated originally, there are simply too many variables -- and nuances -- to consider one response sane and another silly. The point was to engage in a mature, reasoned, intellectually-challenging exchange, and I for one appreciate your perspective.

We've no "Hi, I'm Jim" requirements around here, as the primary purpose of the site is really geared toward weapon and equipment reviews more than discussion; that said, you're certainly welcome to hit a couple of the general topics threads, such as What is your background? or What's In A (User) Name?

You're also welcome (and highly encouraged) to share your experiences with a particular weapon or piece of equipment by means of a submission to our User-Submitted Review section. Based upon what I can glean of your frame of reference and writing style, I get the sense that your contributions would be well-received.

AC

[oregonshooter]

Scenarios are always "what if" setups but I think they are worth brushing over whenever we can so we have some kind of planned response. If we stick to the plan or not is another thing.

One thing I didn't address is the BGs telling me to get lost and continung to hot wire the rig. If that is the case and they make it out of the parking lot before the cops come, then so be it.

I could spray them out of the cab, but to me that is not worth the aggressor title it will earn me in court. Unless there is a weapon in the car which is likely if I'm out of town at a 3gun match.

Another reminder to disable guns left in the car.