OPTICS Question/Suggestions

[alamo5000]

OK guys... I back again to pick your brains.

I am fresh back from the sporting goods store where I was able to actually handle one of the 1-4 scopes listed here. It was nice. I like it.

But that brings up a whole nother ball of wax. What exactly IS a prism scope?

I was able to handle and compare the two side by side and they both seem like they have strong points.

The 1-4 acts like a true scope more or less. I am guessing if you are not dead on behind the scope then your ability to put rounds on target could be compromised (IE more for target shooting than say 'battle rifle' in some senses of the word.

The prism scope I saw had a recticle in it. It didn't have just some shiny old red dot hanging out there. It had mil dots and everything. The look, the construction and the functionality of the prism scope seemed to me to be quite interesting. The problem is I don't know what a prism scope really is.

Can anyone explain it to me in basic english? :)

I am guessing a prism scope is like a cross between a red dot and a scope scope. Instead of a big funky dot hanging out there it has like I said, cross hairs, mil dots, whatever the thing is built with.

What are the pros to this kind of optic and what are the cons?

After doing a side by side comparison the prism scope actually has a slight edge. I am thinking if I can get a 4X prism scope with the recticle I like then I might, I just might have found my optic. Before jumping the gun though I want to learn more and know more.

If I can do quick acquisition with the prism that is a good thing. If the eye relief is more forgiving thats a good thing. If 'where the dot is the bullet goes' regardless of your orientation to the back of the scope... that is a very good thing.

Also playing around with scopes of various sizes and types in the store I got a bit of a dose of reality. I am seriously thinking that a 4X power at 100 yards zero will be more than sufficient for me.

If the target is "man sized" and out there at 200 yards I am pretty sure I could live with a 4X power and get lead on target.

The idea has never really been (despite the sometimes mixed messages) to try to stack shot on top of shot or nail dimes from a fence post at 100 yards. Under controlled conditions I am sure I could tag an apple at 100 yard with a 4X scope... but all these other factors (if it is what I think it is).... then all those other factors make a much better choice for me.

The adjustable scope I played with had very clear optics on it. That said, after manipulating the thing for a while in the store I could envision myself outside shooting constantly fiddling with the thing. After touching it and seeing it and playing with it, that might NOT be what I am looking for. True I could set it at a certain power and run it from there (shot by shot) but if I am really truly running and gunning more I could easily wind up with the same magnification level (4X) as what I was playing with but gain several other factors, and not lose too much "accuracy".... and by 'accuracy" i mean lead on target...as I said before its a loaded word that can mean different things to different people.

Right now that prism style has an edge but for anyone in the know please fill me in to pros, cons and function, and how it all operates, or even if my assumption about what it is is really all wrong or not would be mighty helpful.

Don't need to get to get too technical but I might have found a good balance to all this.

[DubTap21]

Can't go wrong with an Elcan Specter. Is this the optic you're referring to in your first post?

[GOST]

This may not be what you where referring to but I think you may like. It's a GRSC, here's a pic of the recticle.



http://www.nordenperformance.com/index.html

[Ordnance]

You want precision then don't short change yourself. You can always dial back, but you can't add. You want to run it like a carbine and yet be able to take precision shots which in my world at 300 means <3". If you weren't on a budget I'd say the Vortex 1-6 Razor, or the USO SR6 or SR8, but since I imagine you don't want to drop that much look into a used Vortex PST 2.5-10x32, then mount a 45 offset RMR of sorts for shot <50yds.

[alamo5000]

You want precision then don't short change yourself. You can always dial back, but you can't add. You want to run it like a carbine and yet be able to take precision shots which in my world at 300 means <3". If you weren't on a budget I'd say the Vortex 1-6 Razor, or the USO SR6 or SR8, but since I imagine you don't want to drop that much look into a used Vortex PST 2.5-10x32, then mount a 45 offset RMR of sorts for shot <50yds.

I expended a whole lot of brain power figuring out what I wanted in the way of an AR... I have an optic that works but I am 'evaluating' it to see just how well I like it...and now that i have the gun built I might have to save up and get something really nice optic wise....but I want to make an informed decision by all means.

[Ordnance]

I expended a whole lot of brain power figuring out what I wanted in the way of an AR... I have an optic that works but I am 'evaluating' it to see just how well I like it...and now that i have the gun built I might have to save up and get something really nice optic wise....but I want to make an informed decision by all means.

No worries... I'm late to the party anyways and tried to scan the previous responses but must have missed something.

[alamo5000]

No worries... I'm late to the party anyways and tried to scan the previous responses but must have missed something.

No, no. You're fine. I was building an AR (which is now done) and basically I emptied out my alloted money. So I picked a relatively cheap optic that had some decent reviews online...Mainly so I could get to shooting. You don't 'need' a $1500 optic to shoot....

But in the end if I am not completely satisfied with my middle of the road choice I will be looking to upgrade (after my bank account recovers)...I don't know what I really want yet, but the design concept of what i have is pretty neat. There are just so many choices... I get overwhelmed looking at all this stuff and figuring out how it will fit into my current system. At this point I am just taking it easy (also I have to do things like work)... but eventually I can see myself upgrading to something.

What, I don't know yet.

[greenlineaz]

I have the Vortex Viper PST 1-4. I'm pretty happy with it. I was able to take it out to 400m and hit man sized steel plates at the range. Seems like at 4x it does very well for me at the ranges you were asking about. If you are going more for a pure target scope, then I would go with something else.

[schambers]

So just like everything else in the firearms world, there are tradeoffs when you are talking about optics. You will always have to decide between durability, weight, features, price etc. Here are some basic things that I have learned that might help you out.

Can you use a x4 power optic to gets hits on man-sized targets at 200-400 meters? Yes. Will you be able to shoot 1" groups at that distance with a x4 optic? Maybe. That really comes down to your ability and your rifle, more than the glass. Do you need optics to shoot that far? No. Could using an optic make things easier? Yup.

Some basic very basic things to look at when evaluating optics are: good eye relief, low distortion along the edges of the magnified image, ability to hold zero and for variable power optics, the ability to maintain a zero when moving between power ranges, does the reticle do what you want it to do?

You should also ask yourself what you expect to do with your weapon and how is the optic going to help? For instance, I just bought a nightforce nxs 1-4 for my 300 blackout build. I want to hunt with the gun and wanted magnification to aid in placing precise body shots. I could probably have gotten away with iron sights but the magnification makes precise shooting easier. I stuck with a low power scope because the rifle is an SBR and I think if I had more magnification, I would try to push past 300 meters and end up taking shots that I could not gurentee a kill with. I also wanted capped turrets because I would be banging it around and I wanted something light weight.

It seems like you still have a lot of questions about what different optics features are, or what they will do for you. If you dig a little deeper into what the terminology means, it might give you a better idea of what to look for and hopefully narrow down the list of stuff you are looking at buying. Long story short a 1-4x, 1-6x or a fixed 4x will do well with what it sounds like you want to do.

*edit* To answer your question: A prismatic scope is a rifle scope that has an etched reticle with an overlayed illuminated reticle. Shooting magified optics in daylight, I prefer just looking at just the reticle. When shooting at a 200+ yard target, my eyes focus on the plain etched reticle faster than an illuminated reticle. If thats an issue for you, you can just turn off the illumination or in the case of an ACOG, cover the fiber optic with tape. Other than that there are no major plusses or minuses in a prismatic v non-prismatic rifle scope.

Advantages of the ACOG over other "tube-style" optics is that the ACOG provides a 32mm objective (Or some number close to 32) in a package thats light weight and compact. Larger objectives allow the optic to gather and transmit more light, which equates to a clear image. ELCANs are nice but they are very bulky. Both are very durable and if we are talking about banging the optics against doors and walls and whatnot, they will outlast the other things you are looking at.

[Tyrannosaur]

So I'm in the process of picking a 1-4 or 1-6 scope. I've narrowed it down to the Nightforce NXS 1-4, Vortex Razor 1-6 or the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4. Basically I'm looking for a durable optic that can take ample abuse ( SHTF...) How does the Razor compare to the legendary Nightforce? I've looked at multiple reviews over and over but all I see is the Vortex explaination that says "built like a tank" but I see that with almost all reviews of most scopes. I know I will most likely never need the durability but want it to be there if the need arises. The only factor making me lean away from the Nightforce is the lack of daytime illumination. This will be used for mainly CQB engagements to 300 yards too.

[alamo5000]

So I'm in the process of picking a 1-4 or 1-6 scope. I've narrowed it down to the Nightforce NXS 1-4, Vortex Razor 1-6 or the Trijicon Accupoint 1-4. Basically I'm looking for a durable optic that can take ample abuse ( SHTF...) How does the Razor compare to the legendary Nightforce? I've looked at multiple reviews over and over but all I see is the Vortex explaination that says "built like a tank" but I see that with almost all reviews of most scopes. I know I will most likely never need the durability but want it to be there if the need arises. The only factor making me lean away from the Nightforce is the lack of daytime illumination. This will be used for mainly CQB engagements to 300 yards too.

I have put up several threads on optics so look around at those and some of the links in there too. As I have slowly learned more things and kind of gained insight I was able to post more information as I went on various aspects.

For your specific question as to which one, that is up to you. Among 1-4x scopes you have a lot of options. For what you can get one nightforce 1-4x for you can get three or four Vortex. I held both side by side one in my right hand and one in my left so I kind of got the feel of what you gain with bigger brands.

My constant debate that I am having until I settle on an optic is the power... in one of the other threads I put up it kind of dawned on me how these optics are used. None the less I think a 1-4x is more than sufficient for a AR. I can also see the benefit of a 1-6, but the one I like as well is the US Optic 1-8x. That's one that to me might be the do all scope.

But what I still might do is get a Vortex 1-4x as an upgrade from what I have now and also get the 2.5-10x and have both. I can get both of the scopes for half of one US Optic.

It's needless to say that my research has turned up a lot on the subject and I have a lot to say on the subject but I haven't made up my mind what I want yet. I am not necessarily doling out advice but rather I can tell you what my homework has come up with so far if you really want to know.

[Tyrannosaur]

Thank you for the reply. I've read some of those threads. It is so hard, so many options. Just as I decided what I want something pops up to sway me. My main criteria is to use it as a red dot more or less to 300 yards and the main one, its durability. But as you said there are so many options. The Stickman giveaway got me on a 1-4 kick. I saw the US Optic and got the bug. My eyes suck and I'm not her ng younger so it makes sense to move away from the RDS scene

[alamo5000]

Thank you for the reply. I've read some of those threads. It is so hard, so many options. Just as I decided what I want something pops up to sway me. My main criteria is to use it as a red dot more or less to 300 yards and the main one, its durability. But as you said there are so many options. The Stickman giveaway got me on a 1-4 kick. I saw the US Optic and got the bug. My eyes suck and I'm not her ng younger so it makes sense to move away from the RDS scene

There are a whole lot of options and really someone could spend $100,000 dollars on optics and not even dent it. 1-4X scopes are probably the best all around scope for anything 300 yards and within (on a 5.56). Versatility to me being the key. If you want to keep the whole battle field in view then you got it with the flick of a switch. But as so many people pointed out it depends on the mission and what you want to do. I would love the 2.5-10x FFP that Vortex offers. I could do my precision shooting (at shorter distances) as well as get about as far out as a 5.56 will allow. On the flip side the 1-4x offers a whole lot in it's own right.

So far I am not really sold on most red dot type optics but I guess I just haven't learned enough yet to appreciate them as much as I should.

As far as rugged goes the Nightforce and a few others out there are clearly just amazing. I haven't by far handled all of them, but seriously the choice boils down to the ranges at which you are going to be shooting at. Shooting 500-1000 yards out requires so much more different stuff than shooting in a dynamic environment at a 0-200 yard range. Really though I think getting the right tool for the right job is pretty much where it's at. And regardless of what you (and I) end up picking, the real key is to get good at using it.

[alamo5000]

It almost in ways reminds me of photography. So many people fawn all over this or that and how many megapixels and take pictures of charts and brick walls or whatever and argue all this technical crap that doesn't have anything really to do with creating a good image.

For example if I want to shoot precision shots I need a great trigger, a better barrel, and I need to invest in creating 'the round' tailored for my rifle. And if I don't know ballistics and can't read wind none of the gear will matter as much. If you are talking about up close 100 yards and within, if your reflexes are bad you can have the most bad ass stuff and it won't matter. In other words I am of the school that once you get something picked out along the lines of the mission then learn to use that sucker.