Noveske 16" builds/accuracy

[Aberration79]

So I have built 2 AR's with Noveske 16" barrels. One is using the matched bolt that came with it, the other has a Rainier Arms NiB BCG. Both have ALG QMS triggers, with JP Rifles yellow springs.

Both of them are shooting about 4in+ groups at 100yds. I am using a Nikon Monarch 5.5-16 x 44 scope on a LaRue SPR mount.

Now I am no sniper, and I have only had basic infantry marksmanship training. At one point I did shoot expert. But my eyes are no longer good enough to do that with irons. I am using a pretty hefty sandbag on a bench at the local range.

I have shot cheap wolf, and recent I was loading up some 69gr SMK, 75gr Hornady, and 77gr SMK. With some Ramshot TAC. I was starting low, about 22.5gr stepping up .2gr. I had 50 rounds of each loaded. None shot much better.

So all I can think is I did something wrong in the builds. I used a barrel vise and torqued to 35lbs then just enough to align the gas tube. Or I am a really poor shot. Or there is something wrong with the scope?

I am thinking of getting some MK262 Mod1 to see how those shoot as a baseline.

Any ideas? I am really scratching my head. At 4MOA+, they aren't much use past 100yds.

[alamo5000]

Uwone is going to give me a hard time but I don't care :)

Which Noveske barrels are you using? What is the twist and all that info on your specific barrel?

[UWone77]

I'd have a buddy shoot it and see what his groups are.

[alamo5000]

I'd have a buddy shoot it and see what his groups are.

YUP! I agree. If they get the same results check out the scope and/or try better ammo.

[UWone77]

Uwone is going to give me a hard time but I don't care :)

Which Noveske barrels are you using? What is the twist and all that info on your specific barrel?

However, I love your attitude...LOL

[alamo5000]

However, I love your attitude...LOL

I am enthusiastic! :)

Although I am new to (owning) AR's I am not at all new to most other forms of shooting... many of the principles do carry over (IE ballistics) or whatever...

[Ordnance]

Several things. First off, quit using cheap ammo and expecting better results. Second, most barrels need to foul up a bit before groups tighten up which can be anywhere from 20-100rds. 4" is a lot to tighten up though. If you're going to run heavies then make sure you're checking your seating to the lands on the ogive and not getting caught up on the COAL when loading and crimping because if the bullet is getting pushed back into the case you could be getting pressure spikes creating flyers. Next, a lot of people get behind an AR with a match barrel and expect to shoot it like their bolt rifles achieving the same ragged hole results... yeah... that's not going to happen unless you've been shooting a precision AR for awhile. Semi-auto platforms magnify all the errors in a shooters form. They have longer lock times which means you need to really be consistent on your trigger follow through and not gripping the handle like you want to choke it. Because it's a semi you also need to try and be straight behind the rifle. The other guys are right though and you should have someone experienced with AR's get behind it. You should have it on a bipod or in a lead sled so the shooter can load the pod and really control the recoil impulse (I prefer a bipod because I only care what the rifle can do with me behind it). Can you post up a photo of the glass mounted? Did you make witness marks to see if the scope is shifting? When you installed the scope did you pull forward on the ring/mount before tightening it down? Maybe swap the glass out with someone else real quick and see if it shoots better. If all else fails then I would question the barrel headspacing and call Noveske for a call back tag to ship it to them since they have a guarantee and it's not achieving it.

[Aberration79]

Uwone is going to give me a hard time but I don't care :)

Which Noveske barrels are you using? What is the twist and all that info on your specific barrel?

The stainless. From what I can tell all Noveske are 1:7 polygon rifling with "Noveske" chambers.

I'd have a buddy shoot it and see what his groups are.

Damn it. That means I will have to make friends.

Several things. First off, quit using cheap ammo and expecting better results. Second, most barrels need to foul up a bit before groups tighten up which can be anywhere from 20-100rds. 4" is a lot to tighten up though. If you're going to run heavies then make sure you're checking your seating to the lands on the ogive and not getting caught up on the COAL when loading and crimping because if the bullet is getting pushed back into the case you could be getting pressure spikes creating flyers. Next, a lot of people get behind an AR with a match barrel and expect to shoot it like their bolt rifles achieving the same ragged hole results... yeah... that's not going to happen unless you've been shooting a precision AR for awhile. Semi-auto platforms magnify all the errors in a shooters form. They have longer lock times which means you need to really be consistent on your trigger follow through and not gripping the handle like you want to choke it. Because it's a semi you also need to try and be straight behind the rifle. The other guys are right though and you should have someone experienced with AR's get behind it. You should have it on a bipod or in a lead sled so the shooter can load the pod and really control the recoil impulse (I prefer a bipod because I only care what the rifle can do with me behind it). Can you post up a photo of the glass mounted? Did you make witness marks to see if the scope is shifting? When you installed the scope did you pull forward on the ring/mount before tightening it down? Maybe swap the glass out with someone else real quick and see if it shoots better. If all else fails then I would question the barrel headspacing and call Noveske for a call back tag to ship it to them since they have a guarantee and it's not achieving it.

I wasn't using just cheap ammo. I do expect better than 4MOA. I said the cheap ammo shoots as good as better ammo. The only reason I shot cheap ammo was nothing else was available when I first built them. But 4MOA with cheap ammo? No way. And even though my hand loads might not be tuned to perfection, 4MOA? And then as I used different weights, a wide range of powder weight, it just didn't add up. So I thought maybe there is just something I was missing about building this things. But its not much more difficult than Lego's!

I have a bi-pod, the bags seem far more stable to shoot from. I got a big heafty Champion bag on the front and a small bag under the stock. You think a bipod would be better? I just have a RCBS basic setup. But what I was reading about loading for the 5.56/AR was that the lands on the 5.56 were so far away that I would never make them on magazine length rounds. I probably should still check being the Noveske chamber? Now the glass and witness marks. Hmm. I should have thought of that. The mount is a LaRue SPR removable mount. They claim a guaranteed return to zero.

Trigger follow through, I never focused on that. Makes sense.

I am experienced with the AR, just not precision shooting. We'd always just go out shooting plates and melons and cans. 300yds had never been a problem. Except for the Army qual, never sat down to take my time. These are just my first builds. My old plinker Oly Arms shoots better!
Honestly if I was shooting around 1.5-2MOA or so, I wouldn't be so concerned. I would just chalk it up to me. But 4MOA? Its a lot. At 300yds that about a foot! I would never be able to plink cans if my Oly shot that poorly.

I never knew they had a guarantee! That is VERY refreshing to know.

My intent was to eventually get into 3gun. I don't need a 1000yd tack driver, but 4MOA won't do for 3gun. This scope was just the one I had on my hunting rifle, and I didn't know what I was going to go with on the AR, so just used it. It was on a Rem700 7mm Mag, so I figured if it would handle that the AR shouldn't be beating up on it. So I never questioned the glass itself.

[alamo5000]

Do you have any back up irons on the rifle?

Knowing all that I am still on board with Uwone about having a friend shoot it. If it's still all over the place remove the scope and test it another way.

At this point it's hard to say but I might lean towards a scope issue. My front mount came loose the other day right after I got a 100 yard zero and I went from 1" to 12" groups just like that. It wasn't even all the way off, it was just a little loose and it had that big of an effect.

Who mounted the scope and what does all that look like? I personally would try to isolate each part at a time...and a scope is by far the easiest thing to isolate fault in if you ask me.

[Former11B]

Are you using the same scope and swapping it back and forth or do you have identical scopes on both?

If the former, is the mount securely fastened so it's not wobbling during the course of fire? If the latter, are they both tight?

Not trying to insult you here but if they're both offering similar results, it seems like the problem maybe something simple.

[Aberration79]

Yeah I got the MBUS. The problem with those is my eyesight sucks. I'll have to find better contrasting targets. I mounted the scope. It was working great on the Rem700. The mount sits too high on it, so I can't get my cheek on the stock.

The big concern was 2 rifles doing the same thing. But when I think about it, the only thing common between them is the ammo and optics. Same type of barrel, but 2 barrels the same way? Thats why I was think it was something with how I built them.

[Aberration79]

Are you using the same scope and swapping it back and forth or do you have identical scopes on both?

If the former, is the mount securely fastened so it's not wobbling during the course of fire? If the latter, are they both tight?

Not trying to insult you here but if they're both offering similar results, it seems like the problem maybe something simple.

Same optic swapping back and forth. Or at least I was at first, no real point in swapping. But I do remove it when I put it in the safe. Its a Larue LT104/SPR. These things are magic. Easy to tighten and adjust. It would be the optic is anything.

I am really going to have to make friends LOL.

The bigger problem is I travel for work, its so damn hard to make schedules work with others. The one friend I got who is usually available is a really new shooter. Man do I got a story about a Savage .270 he bought from Dicks and the scope mounting job they did.

Personally I used to work on some of the most complex manufacturing equipment in the world. Everything was nanometers. So I get a lot of the concepts and theory. The mechanical stuff is simple. And I know I need to work on my own skill with the trigger. But this whole 4MOA on 2 rifles just has me stumped.

Anyways, I'll get back at you guys. I got to head to Kentucky, from Oregon, until the 25th. Hopefully I get put some lead down range after that, before Thanksgiving.

[Ordnance]

I wasn't using just cheap ammo. I do expect better than 4MOA. I said the cheap ammo shoots as good as better ammo. The only reason I shot cheap ammo was nothing else was available when I first built them. But 4MOA with cheap ammo? No way. And even though my hand loads might not be tuned to perfection, 4MOA? And then as I used different weights, a wide range of powder weight, it just didn't add up. So I thought maybe there is just something I was missing about building this things. But its not much more difficult than Lego's!

I have a bi-pod, the bags seem far more stable to shoot from. I got a big heafty Champion bag on the front and a small bag under the stock. You think a bipod would be better? I just have a RCBS basic setup. But what I was reading about loading for the 5.56/AR was that the lands on the 5.56 were so far away that I would never make them on magazine length rounds. I probably should still check being the Noveske chamber? Now the glass and witness marks. Hmm. I should have thought of that. The mount is a LaRue SPR removable mount. They claim a guaranteed return to zero.

Trigger follow through, I never focused on that. Makes sense.

I am experienced with the AR, just not precision shooting. We'd always just go out shooting plates and melons and cans. 300yds had never been a problem. Except for the Army qual, never sat down to take my time. These are just my first builds. My old plinker Oly Arms shoots better!
Honestly if I was shooting around 1.5-2MOA or so, I wouldn't be so concerned. I would just chalk it up to me. But 4MOA? Its a lot. At 300yds that about a foot! I would never be able to plink cans if my Oly shot that poorly.

I never knew they had a guarantee! That is VERY refreshing to know.

My intent was to eventually get into 3gun. I don't need a 1000yd tack driver, but 4MOA won't do for 3gun. This scope was just the one I had on my hunting rifle, and I didn't know what I was going to go with on the AR, so just used it. It was on a Rem700 7mm Mag, so I figured if it would handle that the AR shouldn't be beating up on it. So I never questioned the glass itself.

A bipod is better because you can load the bipod. Not all AR's need it, but most of the time it helps greatly. As for Larue's mounts they're good mounts but it's only as good as how the glass is put into the mount. And his claim on the return to zero for the QD has been proven several times as not being perfect despite the temper tantrums Mark has thrown. It's a good mount, but if you're serious about maintaining a zero then don't remove it unless absolutely necessary.

Reloading... yes a lot of AR's and even bolts these days have deep throats and you won't necessarily reach the lands. Also, some rifles actually like to jump to the lands. But most match grade barrels should have tighter chambers. I also check to make sure there's nothing wrong in the first place because if my lands are back too far then you'll have pressure issues. I've had a very nice 308 with a Bartlien that the throat was too tight and it was because of a bad reamer. That was also the rifle that once fixed I discovered went from .6-7 down to <.5 by simply going from a 2.81 COAL to 2.79 and letting it jump a little more to the lands.

AR shooting for quals is nothing like precision shooting. Most millitary qual plates are 2-3MOA or greater and very forgiving of shooter error. And I'm not saying that the 4 MOA is in any way acceptable. I'm simply pointing out possible problem points. Too many people want to blame equipment before the shooter, but all are factors. If you have a 2 MOA gun with a 2 MOA shooter then you'll shoot really bad groups. Again... I'm not saying your the problem, but you did say you were newer to the precision world.

They do have warranties and they should Guarantee a 1MOA or better. They would get eaten alive if they sold a 4 MOA barrel and weren't willing to fix it, lol.

Always question glass. I don't care if it's S&B, NF, USO, Kahles, Vortex, or Leupy. Shit happens and everything is susceptible to breakage. AR's have multiple recoil impulses as well and your bolt only has one. If you're serious about 3 gun I would look into an 18" with intermediate or rifle length gas.

Again... None of this is by any means saying you're the problem but simply looking at the top factors that usually contribute to the issue. I'm suggesting the easier factors to eliminate short of sending the barrel back just yet or watching you beat your head against a wall trying to figure it out.

[Ordnance]

Yeah I got the MBUS. The problem with those is my eyesight sucks. I'll have to find better contrasting targets. I mounted the scope. It was working great on the Rem700. The mount sits too high on it, so I can't get my cheek on the stock.

The big concern was 2 rifles doing the same thing. But when I think about it, the only thing common between them is the ammo and optics. Same type of barrel, but 2 barrels the same way? Thats why I was think it was something with how I built them.

Are you saying you can't get a good cheek weld on the AR?

[Ordnance]

Same optic swapping back and forth. Or at least I was at first, no real point in swapping. But I do remove it when I put it in the safe. Its a Larue LT104/SPR. These things are magic. Easy to tighten and adjust. It would be the optic is anything.

I am really going to have to make friends LOL.

The bigger problem is I travel for work, its so damn hard to make schedules work with others. The one friend I got who is usually available is a really new shooter. Man do I got a story about a Savage .270 he bought from Dicks and the scope mounting job they did.

Personally I used to work on some of the most complex manufacturing equipment in the world. Everything was nanometers. So I get a lot of the concepts and theory. The mechanical stuff is simple. And I know I need to work on my own skill with the trigger. But this whole 4MOA on 2 rifles just has me stumped.

Anyways, I'll get back at you guys. I got to head to Kentucky, from Oregon, until the 25th. Hopefully I get put some lead down range after that, before Thanksgiving.

Same scope on 2 different rifles and both shooting 4 MOA? Larue is not as magic as you think. Too many people ignore key components based upon a false belief that something is infallible...