More Barrel Questions

[alamo5000]

So I have my AR done and I've shot it a little... I got the scope zeroed (twice) because of a scope mount mishap...

But now I think I have most of the kinks worked out and I am seeing overall what I am getting in way of results.

I am using a 1-4X scope that has a a 'tactical' reticle...I am testing this part still. I am very confident in the gun... and the optic I would rank as 'satisfactory for my purposes' so far. It's still very early.

At 100 yards I can shoot off of a little shooters block and get 1" groups at 100 yards using this ammo.

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-REM-55-GR-FMJBT/

"Accuracy" is all relative to one's expectations and distance shot etc etc. I am sure with some match ammo I could possibly tighten up my groups, but I see that as being sort of irrelevant with my current set up. While I like accuracy, 1" @ 100 yards with off the shelf ammo is more than sufficient for this rifle. I have yet to go try to get a 200 yard or longer shoot in. It's very unlikely that I will ever take shots beyond 200 yards... and if I do it will be every now and again... like maybe once or twice a year.... (unless I start making regular trips out to the longer ranges around here)...which that is an option but up until now I just shoot for free considering how rural it is out here.

I set out for 'accuracy' but not long range accuracy ...and I think if I want to 'tighten it up' from where I am now I will need a higher power optic and I will need to either buy some match grade ammo or reload my own until I find the right grain and charge combo...

The barrel I have is a 16" select medcon from Rainier Arms. It's proven to be good and has met my expectations.

My barrel is 416R stainless steel... and in reading on the internet I am finding a lot of mixed information and some of which is outright BS if you ask me (whoda thunk it... garbage on the internet!)

But some of the more or better things I have been able to find aren't directly answering my questions. The information is still all over the place.

Some people are saying with a stainless steel barrel competition shooters trade their stainless barrels in after 5000 rounds...that is really not that much in way of ammo count. But if I eventually need to get a new barrel I will just get a new barrel. If you're gonna own a car eventually you need new tires or wiper blades... and if you are going to shoot as a hobby... well same thing.

That said this notion of 'competition shooters' could well mean people shooting 500-600 yards out or more. It could mean any number of things. Their expectations could be way more demanding than mine.

I don't forsee myself giving my gun or my barrel truly hard use... I could see myself realistically shooting 2000 to 3000 rounds per year which breaks down to about 2 mags a week on average, sometimes a lot more, sometimes less... and that is just an estimate. It might be a little less...mainly because I don't go shooting full auto blasting, but rather more like targets or other things along that line. I enjoy trying to melt the barrel on an MP5 but I also enjoy 'sniping'...much more of the latter than the former.

My AR is sheerly a 'pleasure' and sport gun...and of course could be used for home defense or whatever.

Knowing all that information about my realistic range level (100-200 yards max)... what kind of barrel life can I realistically expect in way of round count before this barrel of mine starts to drop off and/or needs to be replaced?

And not that I am going to go out and change anything soon, but just for my learning about barrels, I don't think at those ranges upgrading to a match grade barrel will make that much difference, but I could be wrong. If I DID upgrade I would need to be more involved in manually reloading AND get a much better optic for it to make a real difference... not to mention this condition of mine called 'amateur shooter error'...

That said, I have access to longer shooting ranges... 600 yards is 20 minutes away and a 1400 yards (free) range is 15 minutes more...

Long story short I would like to get a more accurate estimate of barrel life for my chosen barrel (with my style of use of it)....I mean seriously if someone was shooting 500 yards out, the barrel might lose a lot after 5 or 10,000 rounds (at that range)... but for 100-200 yards plinking? I hear conflicting information all over the place.

But while we are at it, I could easily at some point another build another upper or two... who knows... where I live I can get signatures from the Chief LEO for an SBR, Class 3, or a suppressor or all of the above in about 5 minutes....at this point a suppressor is probably the most attractive....

I have options about what I 'can' do...vs what I really want to do... 18" or longer barrel with a match grade barrel and much better optic? I could have a longer range rifle that is sub MOA all the way.... That would definitely be an option, but I might do that in 5.56 or .308...

In a way I am thinking of purpose driven rifles that have a purpose completely different than the other...

And we won't even get into .308 yet... eventually one of those will be mine for sure...there is no doubt about it...

But the long story short of it is I am planning on spending money already on stuff I probably shouldn't be spending But alas I am single and have a little bit of savings for a hobby or two.

I hear a lot of conflicting information on barrels....so I would like to hear what the pros have to say about it.

[VIPER 237]

Stainless steel barrels are usually rated for around 5000 rounds for a reason. The 416/410 SS material is much more brittle than a Carbon steel like B-11595E, and so accuracy will drop off drastically in a very short time in comparison to a gradual erosion with the others, however it is easier to make a precision barrel out of 416/410 vs the B-11595E.

Typically around the throat is where you will see the most erosion. My WOA barrel was a sub MOA shooter, but at around the 5400 round mark the groups opened up to 3 MOA and became wildly inconsistent in a single setting as the throat gave out, vs having a couple B-11595E barrels gradually open up over a couple thousand rounds.

Barrel life is also effected by your firing schedule, and Heat is bad. If you act like you have a makeshift beltfed machine gun its going to burn out much much faster than waiting for the barrel to cool down between every shot.

[alamo5000]

Stainless steel barrels are usually rated for around 5000 rounds for a reason. The 416/410 SS material is much more brittle than a Carbon steel like B-11595E, and so accuracy will drop off drastically in a very short time in comparison to a gradual erosion with the others, however it is easier to make a precision barrel out of 416/410 vs the B-11595E.

Typically around the throat is where you will see the most erosion. My WOA barrel was a sub MOA shooter, but at around the 5400 round mark the groups opened up to 3 MOA and became wildly inconsistent in a single setting as the throat gave out, vs having a couple B-11595E barrels gradually open up over a couple thousand rounds.

Barrel life is also effected by your firing schedule, and Heat is bad. If you act like you have a makeshift beltfed machine gun its going to burn out much much faster than waiting for the barrel to cool down between every shot.

So more or less what I can expect out of this specific barrel is around 5000 rounds downrange (plus or minus) I should be more than good.... but then when it starts to go, it really just goes. 1 moa will turn into like 3 or 4 moa relatively quickly. Correct?

Don't get me wrong I have shot full auto on numerous occasions but that's not really my game. It's great and fun (especially if someone else is buying ammo) but I like other things too... just as much if not more.

It might sound weird but I can either burn a case of ammo in no time flat or I can have just as much fun getting 1 mag to last me an hour by setting up and testing shots and this or that from various positions or whatever. There is a lot more science involved in trying to hit a 400 yard target than there is spraying and praying.

Now carrying this over to other directions... say I have a variety of choices in barrels...I don't think going a true 'match grade' barrel is the way to go, because you have to pair that with match ammo and a lot better optic designed for precision. Yes I could stack shots one on the other, but I would also lose an element of versatility by making a one trick pony.

I hear chrome lined barrels can be very suspicious mainly because the lining in the bore isn't always even, and those aberrations lead to loss of accuracy.

Cold Hammer forged... I understand those to last a lot longer through a lot more abuse. Maybe because the metal is harder...

Now NONE of this stuff matters if your manufacturer screws it up. But assuming you stick with quality manufacturers...how much MOA would you in a real world environment lose by going with some of the other types of barrels?

Are we talking 1 moa (what I have now) vs 1.5 for something else or is it more drastic? I am assuming all similar care is taken for the right ammo and all that. I am talking pure apples to apples barrel performance.

[Slippers]

John Noveske had an interesting interview here: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske...view-part-one/

In it, he talks about how his button rifling is an improvement over conventional polygonal rifling, which leads to longer barrel life. He also mentions barrels going past 15,000 rounds without being "shot out."

[alamo5000]

John Noveske had an interesting interview here: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske...view-part-one/

In it, he talks about how his button rifling is an improvement over conventional polygonal rifling, which leads to longer barrel life. He also mentions barrels going past 15,000 rounds without being "shot out."

Very good catch. I am reading now. I am learning tons.

[alamo5000]

Crane: Do you have any plans to do a piston gun?

Noveske: We have piston plans, but we don’t have any plans of putting it in production, because it’s…I don’t think it’s necessary. I’ve got piston guns here from other makers, and they’re dirty, and I don’t see…

Crane: Whadya’ mean "dirty"?

Noveske: Open up the bolt and look inside, and it’s dirty inside. The whole thing about them running clean is not necessarily…o.k., let me back up. I only run the guns with suppressors for testing when I did my comparison, and with suppressors, direct-impingement and piston-operated were both very dirty, ’cause the blowback comes to the chamber, not the gas tube. And, I’m not real happy with the piston systems that I’ve shot and examined, so it’s just to me, it’s not…

Crane: Well, the piston…the advantage for a piston with a suppressor on there is supposedly it doesn’t blow all the gunk back in your face.

Noveske: O.k., but what you’re not paying attention to is that all that crap comes back through the chamber, not the gas tube. On a piston gun or gas-impingement, the case is being extracted while the suppressor is still under pressure. Now you have all the pressure in that suppressor exiting both out the front and the back.

Crane: Right, but you’re saying the piston gun doesn’t solve that?

Noveske: It does not solve that. They’re both dirty.

[GOST]

The benefit of cold hammer forged is consistency in your chamber and bore. Due to the chrome lining it shouldn't make a difference whether or not the barrel is CHF or not for longevity, since the bullet would contact the chrome instead of the material underneath. Some are saying that meloniting a barrel is the way to go. The meloniting supposedly is stronger and has less growth, for minimal effects on accuracy. I personally have no experience with melonited barrels but have a BCM BFH and have been very pleased with it. Remember though that a average barrel with good ammo will most likely out perform a high end barrel with poor ammo.

[alamo5000]

Geez. That article is a goldmine. Thank you for sharing!!!

More quotes...

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Crane: Right, o.k., now you’re double-chrome-lining your barrels, or some of your barrels, not the stainless steel barrels, but the…

Noveske: The N4 Light Carbine and N4 Light Recce barrels.

Crane: Light Carbine barrels. You’re double chromin’ ‘em, and obviously, you must be getting a pretty nice even chrome job on there.

Noveske: Yes. I have a tolerance that is equal to a match-grade barrel.

Crane: Equal to a stainless barrel?

Noveske: Well, that doesn’t mean anything, because there’s a lot of different makers of stainless barrels, but there is a kind of an unspoken match-grade tolerance in the custom barrel world of 2/10ths of a thousoundth concentricity, or…in uniformity of bore diameter from end to end, and I spec that out on my chrome-lined barrels.

Crane: Are you the only guy that’s double-chrome-lining ‘em?

Noveske: That’s not the right [terminology]. "Double-chrome-lining" implies that I’m chroming twice. I’m chroming once to the technical data package requirements for the M249 machine gun [FN M249 Squad Automatic Weapon a.k.a. FN M249 SAW], which call out for a chrome thickness that is approximately twice the thickness of an M16 or an M4.

Crane: The barrels that we’re talkin’ about are Pac-Nor.

Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Crane: What type of stainless are they using?

Noveske: Well, they use 416 project 70. I use a different type of material.

Crane: And what about the standard steel barrels? What kind of steel is that?

Noveske: Let me back up. You can’t call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it’s gonna’ be much different. It’s gonna’ be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it’s a lot harder than any stainless we’ve ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that’s harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.

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http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...0d0e24fcb973c4

"Crucible 416R is a pre-hardened chromium stainless steel which is suitable for use in precision match-grade rifle barrels. It can be supplied in various hardness ranges according to the specific requirements ( HRC 24/28, 28/32, or 32/36)."

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My barrel uses 416R. I wonder if anyone knows what the Rockwell hardness rating is on a Rainier Arms medcon select barrel is? Maybe I will call and ask...at best they can say 'no'...

https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-...dcon-barrel-19

[alamo5000]

One thing I have already learned through this exercise is that the "5000ish" round count for 'competition shooters' can be highly misleading. If they have a "stainless barrel" at a 24 Rockwell hardness that won't last nearly as long as the 32 when it comes to barrel life. "Stainless steel" is too generic of a term... and even 416R has a very wide margin on the hardness level....24 all the way to 36... that's a very wide range in and of itself. The upper end of that is harder (as Mr. Noveske points out) than the standard m16 barrel....

(Side note, I have previously studied a little bit about Rockwell hardness because I like knives and it comes up from time to time)...

[Stone]

Send your barrel to WMD guns and have it Nitrocarberized and you can have the best of both worlds...

[alamo5000]

Remember though that a average barrel with good ammo will most likely out perform a high end barrel with poor ammo.

And can I get an AMEN!

Yes! For sure.

I am trying to learn more about my equipment and generally about barrels...not that it will make me a better shooter but....but.... what the hell, I am just curious about how all this stuff really works.

[alamo5000]

Send your barrel to WMD guns and have it Nitrocarberized and you can have the best of both worlds...

75 bucks plus shipping and all that jive. so call it less than 100 bucks and it would make the surface oh my barrel at least a 56 on the rockwell hardness test down to a certain depth....

I don't know what the effect would be on shooting jumping from let's say a 32 hardness up to a 56....I don't know if it improves accuracy or just life...for right now I might actually want to try different barrels. The one I have is great...but if I can test others... then I might do something like that then.... who knows...

But that is awesome information to know for future reference.

I wonder if Rainier will tell me the Rockwell hardness number of their barrels?

[GOST]

It may improve longevity but not accuracy. I would email Rainier and ask about the hardness number. They've always have been great at answering my questions, and I'm one of those annoying people who have questions about everything.

[alamo5000]

I'm one of those annoying people who have questions about everything.

You too?

I found another tribe member!!! WOOT WOOT!!

[Slippers]

I'm not going to lie. That interview is one of the reasons I purchased a Noveske SPR barrel a year ago for my precision setup. It was expensive, but I love it.