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  1. #1
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    What constitutes a "build"

    We all see this, every day if we visit gun forums enough, but something that has had me curious, for many years, in your opinion, what constitutes a "build". Seriously, generally 99% of the time, I'm just assembling a pile of store bought parts.
    I've even bought complete uppers, and just acquired and assembled the parts for the lower. Having an engineering background, I can and do most of the machining required on any gun, not just AR's, having the advantage of having friends who own milling machines and lathes. I (We, sometimes a good friend of mine who's eyes and hands are younger helps me) pretty much make jigs and fixtures where required, if we can't just use the common table tools to build one). I "dimple" (actually use a flat end mill and bore a shallow cylinder) my own gas block set screws, and can configure a jig to pin gas blocks if I have to. But it has really occurred to me that I'm not actually "building" anything, I just buy parts and put them where they go. I do use proper tools, such as roll pin punches, starting punches, torque wrenches, an armorers tool, and the right blocks to secure lowers and uppers for work. Probably the most precise thing I have to do is index the barrel 180 degrees from the nub on top of the barrel to properly mill the "dimples" for the gas block. Very easy, but can get tricky at times.

    I do see some you tube morons using pliers and counter punches to install roll pins, and other methods that make me cringe,
    but all that proves is that anyone with the right camera and knowhow can make a youtube video.

    I do not consider myself an armorer by any stretch of the imagination, and sometimes trouble shooting problems prove to be difficult, but I'm lucky enough to know folks who can figure it out if I can't.

    So, am I just parsing words here, am I on to something, or what?

    Not trying to poke anyone in the eye, just the opposite, I think if anyone replies their perspectives may make a lively and interesting debate.

    So, what do you say?

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  2. #2
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    Putting anything together with tools constitutes a "build". I think too many people want to try and invalidate others with the ideology that unless you machine the parts it's not really building. Would you tell a contractor they didn't technically build a house because they didn't mill the lumber or forge the nails? Would you tell a Mechanic they didn't rebuild a carberator because they used a rebuild kit and didn't make the parts? I've seen this come up with gunsmiths who want to take offense because they're more concerned about their own egos and feeling the need to validate what they do which is "gunsmithing" AND "building". You also can't quantify something by the tools used because I can easily find mechanics, carpenters, and artist that can do more with basic hand tools then some motards with an entire shop of the nicest equipment. That applies to "Armorers" as well since I come across military "Armorers" all the time and the flat out fact is they often know less than guys who build them in their garage.

  3. #3
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    Interesting question. When someone builds a house, do they make their own cement? Do they cut the trees and plane the logs and mine ore for making nails? I don't know that it matters FT, we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Take computers for example, there is no way in hell I could create a modern video card from scratch, but I still feel accomplished when I "build" a computer. Perhaps "assemble" is a better term, but really it's just semantics. There is still a level of mastery involved. I can build a far better computer than most folks because I have experience in the field and I've done it a hundred times.

    For me it boils down to mastery and professionalism of the craft. Using the proper tools; a torque wrench for example. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed "experts" who never use a torque wrench. Sure in some scenarios it doesn't really matter and an old hat knows roughly how tight things should be from years of experience. But still ... the fucking wrench is in the drawer, why not use it? Proper torque on a muzzle device isn't going to make the gun shoot any better, but it does keep it secure and it leads to consistency over time if you always do it this way.

    Fire up your foundry, get your coals up to temp and start forging that lower receiver FT! You've got a lot of work ahead of you

  4. #4
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    when i buy the parts and assemble it from the ground up
    yes yes i did build that soooooooooooooooooooooo there
    $300 and 10 Pastrami Sandwiches and a case of Diet Coke. ( UWone77)

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoxyDave View Post
    Interesting question. When someone builds a house, do they make their own cement? Do they cut the trees and plane the logs and mine ore for making nails? I don't know that it matters FT, we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Take computers for example, there is no way in hell I could create a modern video card from scratch, but I still feel accomplished when I "build" a computer. Perhaps "assemble" is a better term, but really it's just semantics. There is still a level of mastery involved. I can build a far better computer than most folks because I have experience in the field and I've done it a hundred times.

    For me it boils down to mastery and professionalism of the craft. Using the proper tools; a torque wrench for example. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed "experts" who never use a torque wrench. Sure in some scenarios it doesn't really matter and an old hat knows roughly how tight things should be from years of experience. But still ... the fucking wrench is in the drawer, why not use it? Proper torque on a muzzle device isn't going to make the gun shoot any better, but it does keep it secure and it leads to consistency over time if you always do it this way.

    Fire up your foundry, get your coals up to temp and start forging that lower receiver FT! You've got a lot of work ahead of you
    A little late on the trigger but I like the way you think lol...

    I do want to say though as much as it will cause a disturbance in the force... there are somethings you really don't need a torque wrench for. Does is hurt to use? Not really, but for some guys who do it a dozen or more times a day every day I can see the reasoning behind not pulling it out all the time.

  6. #6
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    There are those who consider that if they buy a complete lower and a complete upper and simply pin them together that they have 'built' a rifle. That takes a big stretch of imagination to consider that building anything.

    When we build a brick wall, we buy bricks, buy mortar, mix the mortar and put all the bricks together. We didn't 'make' the bricks or the mortar. But, we built the wall.

    Buying all the parts and then assembling a rifle is what is generally considered to be building the rifle. Like putting together a kids lego kit for them. Who 'built' models when they were kids? Glued all the parts together and built a tank or airplane from a bunch of plastic parts? It's the same concept really as 'building' a rifle. Put all the legos together in a lego kit and you built the lego kit. AR's are pretty much legos for adults.
    Freedom is NEVER Free. We have to work to protect it and even be willing to die to protect it.

  7. #7
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    Before this thread goes south, Ordinance and Moxy and whoever else reads this, I sense a bit of animosity, as if I'm not acknowledging your skills as a "builder". Take a deep breath. I also didn't put myself on any pedestal also, and if you really read the post before you saw red, you'll see that. Like I said, I've bought complete uppers, and stuck them on a lower, and that doesn't constitute a build. Nobody, especially me, is arguing that you have to forge your own parts from raw ore, to be a "builder".

    So if something this simple strikes a nerve with you, you're ire is certainly misplaced. I asked to start a lively debate, not to discount someone's skill as a builder, nor to elevate mine. If these kinds of posts butt hurt people, then sorry, it wasn't intended. If you think I've discounted your skills, because you didn't actually dig the ore to smelt and forge your own billets, you've read something into the post that wasn't there.

    WHsmithIV, did make a point though. there are folks who buy a complete upper and lower, push the pins in and call it a build.

    This is definitely not a subject worth getting heated up about, as if it were directed to you personally. Just a question.

    FT
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordnance View Post
    Putting anything together with tools constitutes a "build". I think too many people want to try and invalidate others with the ideology that unless you machine the parts it's not really building. Would you tell a contractor they didn't technically build a house because they didn't mill the lumber or forge the nails? Would you tell a Mechanic they didn't rebuild a carberator because they used a rebuild kit and didn't make the parts? I've seen this come up with gunsmiths who want to take offense because they're more concerned about their own egos and feeling the need to validate what they do which is "gunsmithing" AND "building". You also can't quantify something by the tools used because I can easily find mechanics, carpenters, and artist that can do more with basic hand tools then some motards with an entire shop of the nicest equipment. That applies to "Armorers" as well since I come across military "Armorers" all the time and the flat out fact is they often know less than guys who build them in their garage.
    That's great! I used the same contractor analogy on Facebook.


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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    Before this thread goes south, Ordinance and Moxy and whoever else reads this, I sense a bit of animosity, as if I'm not acknowledging your skills as a "builder". Take a deep breath. I also didn't put myself on any pedestal also, and if you really read the post before you saw red, you'll see that. Like I said, I've bought complete uppers, and stuck them on a lower, and that doesn't constitute a build. Nobody, especially me, is arguing that you have to forge your own parts from raw ore, to be a "builder".

    So if something this simple strikes a nerve with you, you're ire is certainly misplaced. I asked to start a lively debate, not to discount someone's skill as a builder, nor to elevate mine. If these kinds of posts butt hurt people, then sorry, it wasn't intended. If you think I've discounted your skills, because you didn't actually dig the ore to smelt and forge your own billets, you've read something into the post that wasn't there.

    WHsmithIV, did make a point though. there are folks who buy a complete upper and lower, push the pins in and call it a build.

    This is definitely not a subject worth getting heated up about, as if it were directed to you personally. Just a question.

    FT

    None of what I said was aimed at you or with animosity. You're reading more into it then what was there unless you're a gunsmith and one that goes around telling everyone else they're just assemblers, lol...

    Add: Also take notice that I said with "tools", lol...

  10. #10
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    Obviously, there is likely increased satisfaction to doing some of your own machine work for your build.


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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Txfilmmaker View Post
    Obviously, there is likely increased satisfaction to doing some of your own machine work for your build.


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    Or the opposite which involves a lot swearing and wondering how you $#@%ed it up so bad... lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordnance View Post
    Putting anything together with tools constitutes a "build". I think too many people want to try and invalidate others with the ideology that unless you machine the parts it's not really building. Would you tell a contractor they didn't technically build a house because they didn't mill the lumber or forge the nails? Would you tell a Mechanic they didn't rebuild a carberator because they used a rebuild kit and didn't make the parts?
    +1

    Manufacturing is one thing, building is yet another. If a person wants to manufacture their own barrel for instance, I say more power to em. This is how innovation happens. But one does not have to manufacture all the parts to 'build' anything.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Txfilmmaker View Post
    Obviously, there is likely increased satisfaction to doing some of your own machine work for your build.


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    There is also increased anxiety of knowing I can really "F" things up, if I have one of those awwwwwww shiiiiiiiiiiiiit! moments, and admittedly, I have.
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  14. #14
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    Here's an example of what I consider "not a build".

    Recently I came (long story) across a "one time only" exceptional deal on a DPMS .308 Oracle. It was fork over the cash now, or take a pass. Since I could actually have the evidence that it didn't have even a full box of ammo shot through it, and I'd had the little voice in my head telling me I needed an AR-10 for quite a while, I took the bait and bought it.

    After playing with it for a while, I found out I didn't like much about it. The crappy 2 piece cheap plastic hand guard, the odd railed block 1/2 inch or so below the rail on the rifle, the crappy stock, the trigger, nothing.

    So, the WWW rescued me. Ordered a match grade NiB BCG, a CMC 3.5lb. "flat" trigger, a new gas block, a MI 15" KMR free float hand guard, a Bravo Company MOD 3 .308 version CH, a CRT Stock, an ERGO AR 10 grip from Larue Tactical, a Lantac Dragon muzzle brake, and some MBUS sights. Basically I just swapped out parts. The only real "work" I did, was that the MI gas block that DPMS promised would be a perfect replacement, didn't, and I had to mill in the dimples to make it work.

    I really don't consider that a build, just me swapping out some parts. A "modification" if you will. I wasn't quite sure, but I thought I heard a voice from far away, from a big white house in D.C. yell out, "YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT"!!!..hmmm now I'm confused as to what to call it, except for my AR-10.
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  15. #15
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    What constitutes a "build"

    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    Here's an example of what I consider "not a build".

    Recently I came (long story) across a "one time only" exceptional deal on a DPMS .308 Oracle. It was fork over the cash now, or take a pass. Since I could actually have the evidence that it didn't have even a full box of ammo shot through it, and I'd had the little voice in my head telling me I needed an AR-10 for quite a while, I took the bait and bought it.

    After playing with it for a while, I found out I didn't like much about it. The crappy 2 piece cheap plastic hand guard, the odd railed block 1/2 inch or so below the rail on the rifle, the crappy stock, the trigger, nothing.

    So, the WWW rescued me. Ordered a match grade NiB BCG, a CMC 3.5lb. "flat" trigger, a new gas block, a MI 15" KMR free float hand guard, a Bravo Company MOD 3 .308 version CH, a CRT Stock, an ERGO AR 10 grip from Larue Tactical, a Lantac Dragon muzzle brake, and some MBUS sights. Basically I just swapped out parts. The only real "work" I did, was that the MI gas block that DPMS promised would be a perfect replacement, didn't, and I had to mill in the dimples to make it work.

    I really don't consider that a build, just me swapping out some parts. A "modification" if you will. I wasn't quite sure, but I thought I heard a voice from far away, from a big white house in D.C. yell out, "YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT"!!!..hmmm now I'm confused as to what to call it, except for my AR-10.
    So you wouldn't consider modifying a car a build then as some one that builds hotrods / Profomance cars I take offense to that. Modifying something is as much of (sometimes even more challenging) a build as building it from a bare frame . A big part of a a build is the knowledge of knowing what parts to use and what works what doesn't and how to put it together.

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