Yet, another thread about barrels. Thank you...

[DutyUse]

Not putting words in Rob's mouth, but if your assembling a rifle to stake your life on wouldn't you spend a little extra and get a barrel from a company with some history. Not saying that the other companies don't pump out a great product, but they don't have the documented test on their products or as many people running their products. Companies like Colt, BCM and Daniel Defense are tested and true with prices competitive with a lot of other companies. There are a lot of companies making a great product but only a few that have pedigree.

I agree 100%. I suggested a FN chf barrel if this was his only AR originally. And I stand by that. Pick a flavor, Rainer, BCM, etc :)

[alamo5000]

Is there somewhere we can read about this testing, procedures, methods, results, etc.?

Check out this thread that I started...

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...rrel-Questions

Post #41 from Uwone:

"I would expect a Rainier Select Barrel to get 10-12k

I have probably half a dozen or more Select Barreled uppers, one has 9k rounds on it. Still shooting sub-MOA at 100 yards."

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Also see post #54 posted on the same day (or thereabouts) when I spoke with Rainier.

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The quotes from John Noveske about barrels are interesting too...

http://www.defensereview.com/noveske...view-part-one/

"Crane: Right, o.k., now you’re double-chrome-lining your barrels, or some of your barrels, not the stainless steel barrels, but the…

Noveske: The N4 Light Carbine and N4 Light Recce barrels.

Crane: Light Carbine barrels. You’re double chromin’ ‘em, and obviously, you must be getting a pretty nice even chrome job on there.

Noveske: Yes. I have a tolerance that is equal to a match-grade barrel.

Crane: Equal to a stainless barrel?

Noveske: Well, that doesn’t mean anything, because there’s a lot of different makers of stainless barrels, but there is a kind of an unspoken match-grade tolerance in the custom barrel world of 2/10ths of a thousoundth concentricity, or…in uniformity of bore diameter from end to end, and I spec that out on my chrome-lined barrels.

Crane: Are you the only guy that’s double-chrome-lining ‘em?

Noveske: That’s not the right [terminology]. "Double-chrome-lining" implies that I’m chroming twice. I’m chroming once to the technical data package requirements for the M249 machine gun [FN M249 Squad Automatic Weapon a.k.a. FN M249 SAW], which call out for a chrome thickness that is approximately twice the thickness of an M16 or an M4.

Crane: The barrels that we’re talkin’ about are Pac-Nor.

Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Crane: What type of stainless are they using?

Noveske: Well, they use 416 project 70. I use a different type of material.

Crane: And what about the standard steel barrels? What kind of steel is that?

Noveske: Let me back up. You can’t call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it’s gonna’ be much different. It’s gonna’ be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it’s a lot harder than any stainless we’ve ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that’s harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel."

(416R is a type of stainless steel-- the same type or similar to what I bought from Rainier)

[GOST]

I'm not for certain but I believe that the a Rainier Arms Select line is made by Black Hole Weaponry instead of Pac Nor.

[alamo5000]

I'm not for certain but I believe that the a Rainier Arms Select line is made by Black Hole Weaponry instead of Pac Nor.

I've heard that rumor but I don't know of the validity of it.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

I've heard that rumor but I don't know of the validity of it.

Talking with a certain person on another forum I can verify that...

[alamo5000]

Talking with a certain person on another forum I can verify that...

Verify that they make them or no? It doesn't really matter to me. It works. The rest is just fluff.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Verify that they make them or no? It doesn't really matter to me. It works. The rest is just fluff.

Yes they do! When I was looking a 308 barrel I was talking with BHW direct and he stated" who do you think makes rainiers" he was flaking about the select line so yes they make that series

[Txfilmmaker]

I also thought the same way and was skeptical because of the price. Now I would never steer anyone away from BCM because I've had great success with them, but looking at my one example of Ballistic Advantage Modern series barrels compared to a BCM they are both superb. Now your correct only thousands of rounds and many examples can quantify this, but a quick peek around Google shows many other similar stories of success.

I recently saw a positive review from MrGunsNGear on BA pencil barrel. Then I mentioned my barrel preferences to Matt, at Jerking the Trigger. Ballistic Advantage was not in the list of barrels that I gave him. He liked my choices, but said I should really give the Ballistic Advantage guys a look. Matt said they are very forward thinking. He has several and has had great success with them. He specifically pointed out their Hanson profile barrel. Fortunately I don't have to buy something tomorrow and I don't have the money yet. If I'm not sure, I'll just go with one of the ones you guys have recommended. I know others who stand behind these manufactures. Bravo Company, Centurion Arms and Daniel defense are three I would trust. I'm sure Rainier Arms has good barrels as well. They have a great reputation for quality. As an example of how I approach picking parts; My family gave me money towards my rifle for Christmas. After asking questions on this forum and talking to people, I decided to go with the Raptor. Because of the lower price, I was tempted to buy the mega arms charging handle that just came out. I wasn't sure if I would like it so I purchased the raptor. It may be a fine charging handle, up but I'm glad I bought the Raptor and I am confident that I have a quality part. Thankfully, I have a good quality level in my garage by my toolbox. :-)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[alamo5000]

Yes they do! When I was looking a 308 barrel I was talking with BHW direct and he stated" who do you think makes rainiers" he was flaking about the select line so yes they make that series

Cool. That said why was he 'flaking'?

In any case Rainier told me (and their website says) that the post machining treatments are their proprietary system.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Cool. That said why was he 'flaking'?

In any case Rainier told me (and their website says) that the post machining treatments are their proprietary system.

Making* stupid iPhone autocorrect. Was verified by the guy I talked with at rainier when I won my 308 set. They put the final touches on their barrels.

[alamo5000]

Making* stupid iPhone autocorrect. Was verified by the guy I talked with at rainier when I won my 308 set. They put the final touches on their barrels.

I was pretty confused as to why they would be flaking out or freaking out about their own products! LOL

When I called Rainier they made no secret about it that they were 'getting the barrels in'...which implied pretty clearly other people were doing the machine work... that said they got no complaints from me.

Next time you talk to your friend tell him I am very satisfied with the product. Seriously. LOL

[Dstrbdmedic167]

I was pretty confused as to why they would be flaking out or freaking out about their own products! LOL

When I called Rainier they made no secret about it that they were 'getting the barrels in'...which implied pretty clearly other people were doing the machine work... that said they got no complaints from me.

Next time you talk to your friend tell him I am very satisfied with the product. Seriously. LOL

That's Black hole Weaponry all day. They make quality stuff. Even if it isn't a "tried and true" name lol

[BoilerUp]

which we base on... What, exactly?

See when I see this barrel which is a known product from a known entity that is $230
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-1...d-16%20std.htm

And then I see this barrel that appears to be representing an equal product for $70 less
https://ballisticadvantagellc.com/?p...odern-series-2

The LAST thing I think is "ooooh, that must be a good value". What I think is, "I wonder what corners they are cutting to save that $70".

You might want to reconsider. Although I understand the "you get what you pay for" concept, you've actually picked an example where the BA barrel might very well be the better value. For starters, in the example you cite, the BCM barrel costs $91.95 more (for me, living in WA, as BA offers free shipping). That is 57% more expensive than the BA barrel, so how much better does the BCM barrel have to be to justify that cost? Both BCM and BA use Chrome Moly Vanadium per the same MIL-B-11595E spec. But the BCM barrel is chrome lined whereas the BA barrel is QPQ treated. These are two very different manufacturing processes and I believe the chrome lining is a more expensive process which is also harder to get the precision required to turn out a very accurate barrel whereas the QPQ may actually provide a superior result at a lower cost. Personally, unless some clear evidence comes out against QPQ to convince me otherwise, I may never buy another chrome lined barrel for an AR.

I also have to say that a lot more goes into setting a price than cost and a lot of costs that have to be recovered by the sales price have nothing to do with the quality of the product you are buying (e.g., rent on the nice storefront, a high end website, sending a few people to set up and man a booth in Las Vegas once a year, photographers, attractive models, website advertising, etc). Selling to the military can also have a large impact on your pricing policy to the consumer/commercial market.

For guys that are trying to squeeze what they can out of every buck they make, there is a lot of opportunity to be found if you dig into the true value proposition of what is available in the market. Expensive or Mil-Spec aren't always better and the technology is always evolving.

[UWone77]

I think the point rob was making was, BCM is a known quality. Doesn't mean that BA can't be, but for a duty/HD gun, I'm going to grab my BCM everytime, or a few other ones I'm confident in.

I know you can get Ballistic Advantage Barrels pinned with a gas block directly from them. However, I got mine from Weapon Outfitters.

Unless you have some bits to drill nitride coated barrels, you are SOL. Obviously not a big deal if you get it from BA directly or don't care about pinned gas blocks. I've also got a BA barrel from Aero, which also doesn't have a pinned gas block. Again, this is more of a FYI, if you care about such things.

Right now I'm not for or against nitride coated barrels, but I'm going to stick with quality chrome lined for now.

[rob_s]

UW has it right.

Whale jizz coating that *might* be better, or known-entity chrome lining?

Barrel from an unknown that *says* the material is MIL-B-11595E, or from the company that has posted certs online, paved the way for non-Colt use of the material, and stopped production and sued suppliers for not delivering, AND who HPT/MPIs the barrels?

Do these things matter to the dirt-shooter, the duffer, the Internet-picture poster, etc.? Probably not. The barrel will "last a lifetime" for most gun-owners because most gun-owners aren't shooters, and sitting in a safe never wore out a barrel. Or, the the gun-as-Barbie-doll guy, the barrel will be changed out for new-new-hotness just as soon as the thrill of the first "build" wears off.

There is s difference between a forever gun and a fiddle-fart gun. I used to have both. The fiddle-fart is no longer of interest to me. I'm looking for a known quality product, from a known entity, at will be there in the rare case that I have a problem, because I want to go shoot the guns. If the purpose of your barrel is to provide the long black rod inside the handguards, your priorities may be different.

I ask questions about these products not to troll but because I'm currently looking for my next 20k round gun. Given my reduced shooting volume these days that is likely to take 8-10 years where it used to take 4-5. It also used to get spread over a bunch of guns, many of them not mine, whereas going forward it will be one or two guns, which I'll be paying for all out of my own pocket. So "value" is important to me, but part of the value equation is getting the performance I require. Given that I am looking to "set it and forget it" I would need a lot more documentation than has been provided here to trust an unknown and un-vetted product from a new entity.

YMMV and all that.