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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordnance View Post
    One issue though man... bad ammo creates bad habits in a lot of people. They get used to poor accuracy and they don't notice when their follow through and other fundamentals are being ignored because they aren't seeing positive results. I understand if it's just iron sight plinking for fun, but if you're shooting for accuracy then shoot for accuracy. I'd rather be limited to 20 rds of pure accuracy down range, then 100rds of all over the place and stepping off range with the wrong muscle memory.
    CAN I GET AN AAAAA-MMMEEEN!

    YES!!! ^^^THIS^^^ All day every day.

    This sums up my desires in almost every way LOL

    Practice yes, but practice good and practice right. So decent plinker ammo is a must for me. None of this hopping grain to grain for the time being.
    Last edited by alamo5000; 31 January 2015 at 10:43.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordnance View Post
    Every type of ammo will likely have a different impact point, and some will just happen to line up. This is why keeping a good log book is key. I know where my zero is for my LR stuff like 77 SMK, and then I know exactly where my new POI will be for the 64 GDHP to adjust accordingly. It's no different then logging your cold bore shot which you should also be doing. Every rifle has a load they'll like best based on the harmonics and the node. For some it may be a 55gr pill while others might be a 62, or a 69, etc. Faster and punchier aren't as important as what's accurate.
    Speaking of log books, what is a good methodology for keeping one? I keep mine in my head. Then again with almost everything I have ever shot before I just found that one round and stuck with it until I found something nicer. Then I stuck with that.

    I very much might get a little binder or something. Studying the differences between ammo is one thing.... but then throw in shooter error and it's another :)

    I am not taking all my shots off a bi pod but I might do that for a while because it's fun and it can be useful. But I think solid data on ammo, loads, and bipod shooting can translate over into increasing skills in other kinds of shooting too.

    I really should keep a log book other than just in my head.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    I have a chronograph but I didn't dig it out for my tests. What I am after is some already made up ammo that I can just buy. And for my nice ammo I will make that more to a precise spec. It's gonna be plinking ammo (the stuff I buy) but I want it to be sort of good. But it doesn't need to be match good.

    When I get to making some real accuracy loads I will do that for sure... but so far...and after todays preliminary test I am looking at 62 grains in 5.56 (not .223) with no steel penetrators.

    I might buy some steel penetrators but not for now. I also might get some 62 grain soft points for around the house. That can be my special mag.

    All my tests are preliminary but so far this is how I am leaning. I liked that 5.56... more punchy.
    You use a chronograph to determine ES (Extreme Spread) and SD (Spread deviation) which has to due with velocity differences between the same type of rounds. The goal being to get the lowest number possible of both but also maintaining accuracy. This is EXTREMELY important when you get into long range shooting as well as reloading, because you want consistent velocities so you're dope is as accurate as possible and not subject to the change in velocity. I take everything to it's max because that's just who I am, but if you're never really going to go beyond 200 or extreme precision then I wouldn't worry about it.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    What's a node?

    I definitely need to keep a log book.

    I went through two mags just this morning... so my results are very preliminary.

    I pretty much know now that my scope is on but now I just need to find that magic load. I don't really want to get too far off the reservation with some odd grain weight... but for my all purpose rounds if I can get 1" at 100 I am more than satisfied. I might get sub moa with other ammo but I am being sort of picky about what I want to get in the way of 'plinker ammo'.

    Building some really sub MOA stuff is possible for sure but for this point in time I am trying to narrow down where my best choices are going to be...

    I tried shooting some monarch ammo that someone gave me... it wasn't all that great. I am trying to balance price with accuracy and an all around plinker round with my fanatical feelings about accuracy
    I'm going to use KISS for this because I could go on about it for a while. Barrels are like tuning forks that vibrate. Imagine your barrel vibrating up and down... If you're bullet is exiting at the top or the bottom of the vibration then you're bullet is essentially being thrown high or low. You want the bullet to exit in the middle for the most accuracy. It's really a LOT more detailed than that, and I could go into about doing node tests out to 1K and so on, but it's really designed around reloading and not factory ammo. Doing the round robin OCW test is similar and the method I suggested was 1/2 assing it to get you something and start you in a direction you should go later when you really delve into reloading for accuracy.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    Speaking of log books, what is a good methodology for keeping one? I keep mine in my head. Then again with almost everything I have ever shot before I just found that one round and stuck with it until I found something nicer. Then I stuck with that.

    I very much might get a little binder or something. Studying the differences between ammo is one thing.... but then throw in shooter error and it's another :)

    I am not taking all my shots off a bi pod but I might do that for a while because it's fun and it can be useful. But I think solid data on ammo, loads, and bipod shooting can translate over into increasing skills in other kinds of shooting too.

    I really should keep a log book other than just in my head.
    This is another topic that can go all kinds of directions. Everyone does it differently. I keep a small log for the field and one for reloading. After you've zeroed, at every range session you want to log the first shot aimed at whatever target you're using. Don't fire any other shots at the target section. Then I log into some custom sheets I made my impacts as I make them in order on the target if I'm doing load development ie shots 1-5, if I called any flyers, etc. You can take your cold bores and after several sessions you'll see the same impact area for instance 1 click left and 2 clicks up or whatever. That enables you to make corrections in the future on your first shot. Some CB shots the POI shift is less than others. It comes down to barrel and load. I use the order of shots and called flyers to look for patterns of error in my shooting ie if I'm pulling the first or 5th shot. If you're doing 5 shot groups out of a magazine fed semi-auto be sure to also load a 6th round so it doesn't affect your recoil impulses. Either way. I can overlap targets over one target and also see where my normal spread is. Also, too many guys look at a 5 shot group and see a 1-2" group, where I can overlap and see that 3 shots all within .25 are within the same spread area but 1 or 2 might be off. I can notice that when there is 1-2 off they're always in the same place. From that I can determine that those are really flyers and usually, not always, but usually as a result of the shooter doing something so you can focus on that and adjust accordingly to pay attention for it. There are a lot of 1-2 MOA rifles out there that are really submoa but people aren't reading the targets like they should. Dot drill tests are also another way to really see what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong.

    Edit: I had to change some things because of the way it was reading. I don't mean after you zero then log, but after you're done zeroing the first time.
    Last edited by Ordnance; 31 January 2015 at 11:47.

  6. #21
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    i use PMC 55gr on all my rifle i get the best accuracy out of that ammo in my 16inch and 10.5inch barrels
    $300 and 10 Pastrami Sandwiches and a case of Diet Coke. ( UWone77)

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ordnance View Post
    I'm going to use KISS for this because I could go on about it for a while. Barrels are like tuning forks that vibrate. Imagine your barrel vibrating up and down... If you're bullet is exiting at the top or the bottom of the vibration then you're bullet is essentially being thrown high or low. You want the bullet to exit in the middle for the most accuracy. It's really a LOT more detailed than that, and I could go into about doing node tests out to 1K and so on, but it's really designed around reloading and not factory ammo. Doing the round robin OCW test is similar and the method I suggested was 1/2 assing it to get you something and start you in a direction you should go later when you really delve into reloading for accuracy.
    For my useage and intents here are a couple of things... In the part of Texas where I live you have to hunt down longer range shots. I've known of shooters that drive for hours to get somewhere to 'stretch the legs' on their bigger guns. We just don't have the terrain here. It's heavily forested everywhere. Some people have secret spots they go to and use but for the most part 200 yards is MAX unless you locate some dedicated special place that only you know about. That said there are always exceptions.

    Don't get me wrong, I would love to go out and take 500 yard shots or more but here it's limited.

    I definitely have the itch for accuracy. I just like it.

    That said, my rifle is most likely going to be 200 yards and in. If I can find somewhere longer range to shoot then by all means I am in. All that bench rest shooting and all that is just amazing stuff.

    As for my AR I might need to sharpen my purpose a bit but I want to be tactical in the mentioned ranges. Within a 200 yard radius (300 would be ideal) to kick ass and take names and ring the gongs. That said once I get the gun dialed with ammo that I like and is consistent... and I get my accuracy game within the ball park I might want to expand out to different aspects of shooting. Maybe some 3 gun type stuff, running courses, etc etc. I might even build a race gun for just that.

    Long story short I just want to get good with what I have. I have a lot of different things that I want to get good at though so I am sort of thinking out loud here. I don't have guns just to have them. That would be like owning golf clubs just to own them. I want to build up a variety of skills with what I have.
    Last edited by alamo5000; 31 January 2015 at 11:59.

  8. #23
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    I handload a specific 55gr FMJ "plinking" round for running drills, paper punching with friends, etc (sub 3 MOA...M855 is 3-4MOA ammo and my "plinkers" are more precise):

    Xtreme Bullets 55gr FMJ
    22.5gr RE10x or 26.0gr CFE 223
    CCI #400 SRP
    2.245" OAL

    For precision performance in my match 1:8 barrels I use mainly Nosler 69gr open tip bullets but was recently given 500 77gr Nosler Open Tip bullets

    Nosler Custom Competition 69gr/77gr
    24.1gr/23.7gr RE15
    Federal Match 205GM Primer
    2.25" OAL

    For Home Defense, I use a 75gr Open Tip round for my AR. Can't recall the load but it's moving about 2750fps

  9. #24
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    "What's a node?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h407yVskVeM


    http://www.stocks-rifle.com/harmonics.htm


    This one isn't about the product but there's some good info in it about barrel harmonics
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaCoUyjKaVk

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
    "What's a node?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h407yVskVeM


    http://www.stocks-rifle.com/harmonics.htm


    This one isn't about the product but there's some good info in it about barrel harmonics
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaCoUyjKaVk
    I watched that first video... good stuff! Thanks!!!

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