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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Out of curiosity, is your issue of running it "without illumination" because you can't leave it on all the time? If so, I can understand the concern. However, since it has individual "off" points in between the brightness settings, I'm not sure how big a deal that is. But I don't know your use case, so that might not be the solution for you.
    I am a fan of trying to combat Mr. Murphy. When I was learning to drive, my grandfather was my teacher (I did home driver's ED.) One of the things he taught me was "Always make sure you have an out if someone around you does something stupid." I have taken that approach on life, with many different things. It has done me a seriously good service, professionally, personally, in every way I can think. Having an optic that works if the battery goes TU, or gets left on, is really nice. What happens if I am attending a class and I leave it on, or it is bumped, or whatever, and I get to the range for class the next day only to discover that it is too dim to use/dead? Well, if I don't "need" it, it will be fine. If I do, I now have two options: I can remove the scope and run the day with irons, or I can "point shoot", which is stupid and will cost me valuable learning. This is also why I use mounts that have slotted nuts. If noone has a wrench, I damn well bet SOMEONE has something that fits in that slot. I just try to live as Mr. Murphy's arch nemesis.

    Overall feelings? It's a pretty amazing package that gives you a clear, 6x optic, a (for the most part) mil reticle (important to me), and doesn't weigh what a Vortex does. Personally, I also prefer the graduations of the reticle of the MK6 over the Vortex (which I've run a bit now, thanks to a buddy who is deployed but had a used one sent to me to play with until he gets back). However...

    The marks that create the donut start to be annoying at 300-400m if you're trying to shoot at something man-sized. And when I say man-sized, I don't mean a full silhouette, but a critical zone target (B/C). Personally, I try and keep the 18" x12" -ish sized target as my standard for distance accuracy. If I can consistently hit a B/C target at 800-ish meters with my .308, I'm happy, and same for 600-ish meters for my 5.56 guns. Anywho, if you have to hold, or just trying to quarter a B/C target at 400m at 6x, I find the donut starts to get in the way. I don't know that I could hit a B/C target at 600m with the MK6, even if I know the gun is capable.

    Why? Does the target "hide behind the donut", so to speak? Isn't the donut something like 5moa on the inside? That means at 600 yards, you should have 30" of "inside the donut", no? Or do you mean if holding, that places the target behind the fat part of the segments? I don't mind covering my target and shooting through my reticle. It's how I shoot 1-1.5MOA groups with my FC-2. I just center the reticle, and "shoot through it". is it as simple as that, and it's a "preference/mental" thing for you, or is it physically impossible to properly use in the situation you are describing?

    As for non-RDS 1x shooting... In Florida sunlight on a paper target, it works just fine (and my standard here is usually around a 4-5" target at CQB distances). At night, in a house with varying background colors and a light...I just can't answer that question, as I don't have the experience.

    So...given all of that, I have done some testing of my MK6 vs Vortex vs Elcan vs Aimpoint PRO. Unfortunately, they weren't all on the same upper, but muzzle device was eliminated from the test (via suppressor). Also, unfortunately, the MK6 upper was a middy Noveske upper (the same one that continues to cure cancer...cause it's awesome). Other uppers were a M4 MWS config (Vortex), MK18 config (Aimpoint), CQBR Block II (Elcan). Forgetting the positives of an extended rail (Noveske), in order of preference for 1x:

    - PRO
    - Elcan
    - MK6
    - Vortex

    The Elcan and the MK6 have the same battery problem, otherwise, the Elcan is more forgiving (with dot on...less so if you have it off, which is your question). The Vortex is an impressive piece of glass, but it's just so damn heavy, and would consistently be .15s slower than the PRO and the Elcan on a very simple 2-ish second 4-target transition test I've been running for all four optics. Also, as it turns out the Elcan is about the same weight as the MK6 with a LT mount.

    I understand why they did what they did with the MK6 red dot, as they only have so much room in the tube and the MK6 is considerably lighter than the USO 1-8 with the dot on the SFP, but the donut can get in the way at distance, if that matters to you.

    Wow, sorry about the novel. Just call me "alamo."
    Not a problem. I'd rather you write a novel. I can pick out what I find interesting (which was all of it, honestly)!

    I had bought a Nightforce 1-4 FC-2 ZS, but it STILL has not shipped. payment posted on the 15th. The seller (a shop/company/online store) has maintained great contact with me, but I don't believe they actually have the thing anymore. They tell me that it will ship from their warehouse in AZ, and that it's been "so hot" there, that they can't do a whole lot right now. Now I'd never ask someone to end up in the ER because they were overworked at a $12/hr warehouse job, but 1.5 business weeks since the money left my account, and it STILL has not shipped? I honestly think the scope only exists "electronically". I do NOT feel that I was ripped off, or lied to. I just feel that I was misinformed, and I feel sure that if I was, the company will make it right with me/refund me. Anyway, I am looking for a tried and true solution. The MK6 is that. The Nightforce 1-4 Is also that. If I can't have my NF, I CAN have a MK6, so I'm kindof revisiting that idea.

    I wanted to ask, your ranking of the optics on 1x? Was that with, or without illumination on?
    Last edited by JGifford; 26 July 2016 at 02:40.

  2. #32
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    Why? Does the target "hide behind the donut", so to speak? Isn't the donut something like 5moa on the inside? That means at 600 yards, you should have 30" of "inside the donut", no? Or do you mean if holding, that places the target behind the fat part of the segments? I don't mind covering my target and shooting through my reticle. It's how I shoot 1-1.5MOA groups with my FC-2. I just center the reticle, and "shoot through it". is it as simple as that, and it's a "preference/mental" thing for you, or is it physically impossible to properly use in the situation you are describing?
    Mathematically, you are correct that it provides a "hole" to look through, but what I found was that the fat parts were blocking bits of the target which made it hard to be certain I was center mass or if I needed to hold, where exactly I was holding. In my example, the plate was 12" wide, which means it was .8 mils. Let's just call it 1 mil to make it easier. So I could see the target through the donut, but it was just cluttered. And if I had to hold left edge, then the donut starts to cover up the right part of the target. Disclaimer... This was on a very overcast day for this particular example, so it's possible with a brighter target, I wouldn't be complaining as much. Maybe complaining is a tad strong. Also, to be fair, in the prone I could still quickly engage the target with hits, I guess I'm just saying I don't find it as fast as say a normal MLR-like reticle w/out the donut (at distance, obviously).



    Quote Originally Posted by JGifford View Post
    Not a problem. I'd rather you write a novel. I can pick out what I find interesting (which was all of it, honestly)!

    I wanted to ask, your ranking of the optics on 1x? Was that with, or without illumination on?
    And understand I'm being critical of the scope because it's just got great parts to it and I'm just complaining about some areas of it that could make it even better. Unfortunately the "flickering" donut is probably the biggest issue it has.

    As for the 1x rankings... All were with illumination, however I have shot MK6 with the dot off, but I don't have quantitative data on a clock to give you. Again, on a paper target, it's very doable. And to be honest, if you don't mount the gun perfectly every time, you'll probably end up shooting without illumination (or at least without all of it) because your eye will be a little off from the "perfect" spot for the donut to light up.

    If you can play with one, I'd definitely have a look. Obviously all of my observations are just what has or hasn't worked for me, so that may different for you.

  3. #33
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    Any updates on how you're liking the scope?

  4. #34
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    At the moment, no. I plan to run it in a competition in December, either on it's current host or on the new upper that's about to be pieced together in the next week or so.

    Short version: standby. I plan to have some more exposure to it within the next month.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    At the moment, no. I plan to run it in a competition in December, either on it's current host or on the new upper that's about to be pieced together in the next week or so.

    Short version: standby. I plan to have some more exposure to it within the next month.
    Roger that. Do you by chance have a photo of the reticle on 1x on brightest setting on a bright day? I know it will wash out on a light background on camera due to how photos are, but something g that showcases it in a worse case scenario, without cheating it due to camera tricks?

    Also, on 6x, how easy is it to see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes? Can it be easily/readily used for ranging and hold-offs, or is it too fine/small/annoying? I ran the numbers through JBM, and anything past about 200-250 yards with my zero and ammo, will put me "outside" of the donut. I can then choose to dial to that, or leave it be, or use the mil/1/2mil hashes as hold-over points for greater precision and less target obstruction.
    Last edited by JGifford; 19 October 2016 at 20:31.

  6. #36
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    All the pictures I have are posted. I'll see if I can take another some time soon, but I'm in a class this weekend, so probably won't be then.

    Personally, I don't have a problem seeing the various stadia at 6x. As I mentioned, I find the donut can potentially make seeing the target harder, but if you're shooting far enough out and you target is below the donut, I don't think you'll have an issue. I think I mentioned it before, but I was able to hold on B/C steel at 400 and make solid hits with no issues. I haven't mil'ed at target with this scope seriously, however I'd argue it's doable, just not as easy as with a 10x or higher.

    Once my barrel comes tomorrow and I can build up a new upper, I really plan to be shooting this a bit more in more of a precision environment, so I'll be able to provide more feedback in that sense.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    All the pictures I have are posted. I'll see if I can take another some time soon, but I'm in a class this weekend, so probably won't be then.

    Personally, I don't have a problem seeing the various stadia at 6x. As I mentioned, I find the donut can potentially make seeing the target harder, but if you're shooting far enough out and you target is below the donut, I don't think you'll have an issue. I think I mentioned it before, but I was able to hold on B/C steel at 400 and make solid hits with no issues. I haven't mil'ed at target with this scope seriously, however I'd argue it's doable, just not as easy as with a 10x or higher.

    Once my barrel comes tomorrow and I can build up a new upper, I really plan to be shooting this a bit more in more of a precision environment, so I'll be able to provide more feedback in that sense.
    Solid.
    Do you find yourself wishing you had gone with the CMR-W, though?

  8. #38
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    I hate BDCs for a precision gun, which was the majority intent of buying the MK6. Or more accurately, being able to use the MK6 in a precision roll as well as a CQB roll. My use for it will change focus now to mostly precision with some CQB (basically for local SPR matches), so again, I'm glad I don't have a BDC.

    As an aside... There's a guy that shows up here who has a lot of money and buys all the cool guy toys. He takes classes and can parrot what he's taught/reads, but doesn't necessarily understand everything. He's also one of those guys where the line between reality (him) and those that actually do this stuff for real is getting a bit blurred for him (IMO). At one point I was fondling a rifle he had that was equipped with a CMR, and after I mentioned I already owned a MK6, he proceeded to tell me all about it. "The BDC is spot on...well, when I shot out at distance, I had to hold in between the numbers, but otherwise it's spot on..." Hopefully I was walking away from him at that point so he couldn't see my eye roll.

    Not directed at you, JGifford, but whenever I hear of a CMR now, I always think back to that exchange now.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    I hate BDCs for a precision gun, which was the majority intent of buying the MK6. Or more accurately, being able to use the MK6 in a precision roll as well as a CQB roll. My use for it will change focus now to mostly precision with some CQB (basically for local SPR matches), so again, I'm glad I don't have a BDC.

    As an aside... There's a guy that shows up here who has a lot of money and buys all the cool guy toys. He takes classes and can parrot what he's taught/reads, but doesn't necessarily understand everything. He's also one of those guys where the line between reality (him) and those that actually do this stuff for real is getting a bit blurred for him (IMO). At one point I was fondling a rifle he had that was equipped with a CMR, and after I mentioned I already owned a MK6, he proceeded to tell me all about it. "The BDC is spot on...well, when I shot out at distance, I had to hold in between the numbers, but otherwise it's spot on..." Hopefully I was walking away from him at that point so he couldn't see my eye roll.

    Not directed at you, JGifford, but whenever I hear of a CMR now, I always think back to that exchange now.
    Well, I plugged in the data for the CMR-W. here in Arkansas, if it's dead on for me, at a match in Denver, I could miss a 18" plate stone cold at 600m. That right there is kinda deal-killing. Why the hell have a BDC if you have to plug the thing into Strelok all the damn time!? I am mainly concerned with...can I shoot at 100 yards and compare ammo? Surely it allows a precise enough aiming point(?) I know I can dial turrets and plug in numbers, lol

    The wind-holds are what the TMR-D is missing, IMO, and where something like the H27D comes into its own.

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    Exactly why I'm not a fan of BDCs. The wind holds will have a similar problem, as well. It may work great for one configuration, but may be off for another. For me, I prefer to know exactly what my rifle is set up for and use those specific numbers on anything more than a 4x. Basically I just make my own BDC. But that's just my personal use case.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Exactly why I'm not a fan of BDCs. The wind holds will have a similar problem, as well. It may work great for one configuration, but may be off for another. For me, I prefer to know exactly what my rifle is set up for and use those specific numbers on anything more than a 4x. Basically I just make my own BDC. But that's just my personal use case.
    I'm with you on it. I just wish it had a Horus type reticle. That would mean you could make your own wind-holds, too. Personally, I'm in the camp of dialing elevation and holding for wind. You can hold for wind with TMR-D if you correct elevation (or vis-versa). I dial elevation because distance is less likely to change rapidly and in an UN-predictable manner than the wind, so you can just change your hold vs. dialing again.

  12. #42
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    Revisiting your requests...

    Quote Originally Posted by JGifford View Post
    Roger that. Do you by chance have a photo of the reticle on 1x on brightest setting on a bright day? I know it will wash out on a light background on camera due to how photos are, but something g that showcases it in a worse case scenario, without cheating it due to camera tricks?
    I did the best I could today with available lighting. It wasn't as bright as a FL day can be due to the clouds, but it also wasn't as rainy as it was earlier in the day. As you know, trying to make this look "real" with a camera is tricky, so I did the best I could. It made matters more complicated that while taking the picture, the sun/glare was in my eyes so I couldn't even see the red dot on my view finder (even though it's actually there in the picture). Anywho, here's what I was able to capture today while the sun was out as much as it was going to be:



    This is setting 7 (I'm pretty sure) which is the max. However, it's slightly brighter in real life than it appears here. If I had to equate it to an Aimpoint intensity, I'd say a two clicks above what you'd probably choose to zero with on an Aimpoint. Very usable, but not the blazing hot brightness of Krypton's sun.

    Also, on 6x, how easy is it to see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes? Can it be easily/readily used for ranging and hold-offs, or is it too fine/small/annoying? I ran the numbers through JBM, and anything past about 200-250 yards with my zero and ammo, will put me "outside" of the donut. I can then choose to dial to that, or leave it be, or use the mil/1/2mil hashes as hold-over points for greater precision and less target obstruction.
    You can definitely see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes. However, I was shooting on a black Dirty Bird 12" grid target, so the hashes would sometimes disappear on the black background. If I adjusted a bit, I could make what I needed to use, usable (I was zeroing, so I needed to make accurate measurements). To reiterate what I've said earlier, the donut has the potential to get in the way on smaller targets. I was shooting 4 MOA (4" @ 100y) sections of the target, and once the zero was refined, I could keep rounds at 2 MOA or better. However, quartering the target was harder with the donut in the way than a more standard TMR/Mildot type reticle. Was it doable? Absolutely, and consistently, but took a little extra concentration. On a 8" target at 400y (previously), I found the same issue. Certainly doable, but took an extra second or so to make sure you had good sight alignment.

    One last thought to add... I've shot my NF 2.5-10x24 quite a bit, and as UWone points out, it's an unforgiving scope, but I'm pretty comfortable with it. I find the NF to be as usable if not a little more than the MK6 on eye relief, unless you have the stock in the perfect position. Since I moved the optic (MK6) over to a new rifle today, I didn't have a spare ACS to use (which is what I've used the MK6 on before and what I use for my NF). As a result, eye position was slightly off (using a SOPMOD), even though I know the LOP position to make it equal to the ACS. Lots of words to say that now I have an ACS on this rifle to help, but the MK6 is very demanding at 6x. Again, usable, but just something to be aware of. But same goes for the NF. Like anything, practice with either will make it easier.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Revisiting your requests...



    I did the best I could today with available lighting. It wasn't as bright as a FL day can be due to the clouds, but it also wasn't as rainy as it was earlier in the day. As you know, trying to make this look "real" with a camera is tricky, so I did the best I could. It made matters more complicated that while taking the picture, the sun/glare was in my eyes so I couldn't even see the red dot on my view finder (even though it's actually there in the picture). Anywho, here's what I was able to capture today while the sun was out as much as it was going to be:



    This is setting 7 (I'm pretty sure) which is the max. However, it's slightly brighter in real life than it appears here. If I had to equate it to an Aimpoint intensity, I'd say a two clicks above what you'd probably choose to zero with on an Aimpoint. Very usable, but not the blazing hot brightness of Krypton's sun.



    You can definitely see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes. However, I was shooting on a black Dirty Bird 12" grid target, so the hashes would sometimes disappear on the black background. If I adjusted a bit, I could make what I needed to use, usable (I was zeroing, so I needed to make accurate measurements). To reiterate what I've said earlier, the donut has the potential to get in the way on smaller targets. I was shooting 4 MOA (4" @ 100y) sections of the target, and once the zero was refined, I could keep rounds at 2 MOA or better. However, quartering the target was harder with the donut in the way than a more standard TMR/Mildot type reticle. Was it doable? Absolutely, and consistently, but took a little extra concentration. On a 8" target at 400y (previously), I found the same issue. Certainly doable, but took an extra second or so to make sure you had good sight alignment.

    One last thought to add... I've shot my NF 2.5-10x24 quite a bit, and as UWone points out, it's an unforgiving scope, but I'm pretty comfortable with it. I find the NF to be as usable if not a little more than the MK6 on eye relief, unless you have the stock in the perfect position. Since I moved the optic (MK6) over to a new rifle today, I didn't have a spare ACS to use (which is what I've used the MK6 on before and what I use for my NF). As a result, eye position was slightly off (using a SOPMOD), even though I know the LOP position to make it equal to the ACS. Lots of words to say that now I have an ACS on this rifle to help, but the MK6 is very demanding at 6x. Again, usable, but just something to be aware of. But same goes for the NF. Like anything, practice with either will make it easier.
    Awesome! I know what you mean about illumination not showing up well on camera. My Kahles looked kindof weak when I took a photo with my phone. Your photo and description is great! Should have my MK6 by the end of the month. Thanks a ton again!

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    You're welcome.

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    Some additional thoughts today after taking this scope out to 600y on B/C steel...

    First of all, while annoying, the donut wasn't actually a too big a hinderance at distance. As I mentioned before, with a smaller target, it will start to cause some issues (at least for me), but with the B/C steel, I could still comfortably bracket the target in the donut and shoot precisely and consistently. I also ran from 300y out to 600 using holds while zeroed at 300y and it was very comfortable, however, it was a little harder to "find my place" on the reticle when I needed to hold somewhere in between the center and the 5 mil mark since there aren't any numbers in between. At 500, I needed 2.6 mils and it was easy to lose my place for a second to make sure I was still under the 2 mil mark. Capable? Absolutely, just a tad slower than a reticle with some more numbers on it.

    My other main take away is how sloppy the turret is. When you slip the turrets back to zero, it snaps into place due to the push-release button, but there's play when it's in the detent. I tried to center the "0" on the mark, but even after tightening it up, it's not perfect, so it can be hard to tell if 1.6 mils is really 1.6 or 1.4. Also, the turrets are mushy. I was jumping back and forth between my NF 2.5-10 and the MK6 and when I'd go back to the NF, the turrets were super-positive. The MK6, not so much.

    All that said, the image is still very clear. I could spot hits at 400. With the mirage today, I couldn't really see impact points past that, but the targets at 500 and 600 were still very clear and the overall impact "splash" was viewable out to 500. I needed help at 600, but that could have also been the target (this was a MGM versus Red Stitch on the others, I believe).

    If the turret was better, this would be a no brainer, but with the turret, I'm eager to see what may come of this mythical NF scope...and if it's awesome, the MK6 may help fund that purchase. For now, I'll continue to run the MK 6 in a SPR short course next month and see how it does. I know the rifle it's on is up to the challenge without braking a sweat.

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