Pre-SHOT SHOW 09 rumors, guesses, hopes, etc..

[Stickman]

Call it a hunch Chief, but I think that parts been taken care of in a round about way.

[Stickman]

To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

I can understand how people will feel this way. But, having to comply with German law is just fact. It's the only way this rifle gets made.

What is your relationship to HK or the weapon manufacturing community?


AC seems to have question with the German law portion, and I don't see how a weapon which wasn't designed for Germany would fall under this law, which I had thought involved exportation.


Not giving you a hard time at all, so please don't take it that way.

[Paulo_Santos]

What is your relationship to HK or the weapon manufacturing community?


AC seems to have question with the German law portion, and I don't see how a weapon which wasn't designed for Germany would fall under this law, which I had thought involved exportation.


Not giving you a hard time at all, so please don't take it that way.

I thought that German law pertained to Germany. I don't know why it has anything to do with the US. Either way, I am not going to be getting one.

[HaveBlue]

What is your relationship to HK or the weapon manufacturing community?


AC seems to have question with the German law portion, and I don't see how a weapon which wasn't designed for Germany would fall under this law, which I had thought involved exportation.


Not giving you a hard time at all, so please don't take it that way.

Stickman, no offense taken. I am not an official representative for HK or any other firearms manufacturer, I'm actually a rep in the automotive performance industry, but a (life long 51 years) firearm enthusiast with uncles who are Mil and FedLE. I have a personal friend who works at HK (what used to be called HK Defense, who knows what they call it today, that seems to change on a regular basis). AC I'm sure is correct in regards to the exact interpretation of the law. HK Germany is extremely sensitive to politics especially in the European Union. Example, a ton of shit went down after the whole Russia/Georgia skirmish because the Georgians had G36's and someone made a big stink about it in Germany. Even though those were sold through legitimate channels, someone at HKG didn't know about it and people got fired over it. HKG is adamant that there is a distance differentiation between a military assault rifle (416/417) and a civilian "sporting rifle" as defined by German law regardless of where it's sold. And of coarse the economics of a different castings of the upper and lower receiver for the US market only. Between politics (corporate& government) this is the only way HK-USA could have gotten HKG to build this gun in the US.

I hope that answers the question.

[HaveBlue]

PMAGs were an issue with the 416 before; I'm curious if things will have improved any in tihs version.

AC

Don't be surprised if these actually shipped with Pmags. I'm not saying they will, but it's been "kicked around"

[Army Chief]

Between politics (corporate & government) this is the only way HK-USA could have gotten HKG to build this gun in the US.

Therein lies the rub, I suppose, in that this is precisely what we were led to believe that they were doing. HaveBlue is correct in the sense that it is not "evil features" but rather interchangeability with a military weapon that defines what can or cannot be done under German law. I live in Germany, hunt in Germany, have a German Waffenbesitzkarte (weapons permit), and am familiar with the recent changes in the German law.

There is no doubt that what HK put out in their press release is true for their home market; I just don't believe that it has applicability for ours, since they have a US-based subsidiary. The easy out would have simply been to do as Colt Defense has always done: sell only to law enforcement suppliers, and let these distributors do as they see fit.

It is for this reason that I reject the notion that German law alone played a part in the decision. Had HK indicated that "production efficiencies being what they are, it did not make sense to build multiple versions of the same basic product, and in order to meet various EU requirements, the MR223 was modified so as not to be interchangeable with existing military AR pattern weapons" then I could have lived with that. Instead, they told us that German law somehow prevents them from giving us the rifle that we were told to expect -- a rifle which they have chosen to build in the US in order to comply with US laws. How is one connected to the other, unless economic forces are driving a corporate decision to type-standardize on a single design?

Many people don't know that when BMW builds a new 3 series coupe, for example, there are always three distinct versions produced: the ECE or "world market" model, the right-hand drive model for the UK, etc., and the US model which conforms specifically to our (often stupid) DOT and EPA requirements. In other words, the rest of the world basically gets the same car -- and we get one tailored to meet our certification requirements. Cars are not weapons, of course, but the point here is that BMW does this because they realize that the economic gain offsets the costs of dealing with production changes and variations in the law.

I have little doubt that HK could have done the same thing, released a "law enforcement carbine" and called it a day; instead, they brought their homeland version of a properly sporterized AR over, slapped a flash suppressor on it, and called it a day. In this, they really missed the bus, because our laws bear little resemblance to those in Germany, and you can be sure that if/when the next AWB is passed, the MR223 will be on it, along with every other military style rifle. The Germans base the military/civil distinction largely on cross-compatibility, but our laws make that particular cut based solely on appearances, as defined by specific design features.

Don't get me wrong: I wish HK well in this new venture, and I would rather see the MR 233 on the market than to not see it at all; that said, I just feel that they missed an opportunity and were rather disingenuous their explanation. We weren't "owed" anything, but I do believe that most of us were looking for a slightly different weapon ... one that would have been considerably easier to embrace.

AC

[12131]

I'm sorry for reposting but I really want to know about this one, if anyone has anything.

From gunblast.com, http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2...1/DSC04893.JPG

[Army Chief]

Ah yes ... the Fortis could be something very special indeed. It's good to see VLTOR making progess!

AC

[Venom]

AC, great write up. Same way I feel about the situation.

[bigcoastie]

Bump for Pre-SHOT SHOW 2010 rumors, guesses, hopes etc..

[Sak007]

Magpul will figure out how to make 6.8 pmags & introduce the rubber miad ...........oh wait is this about SHOT SHOW 2010 ?

[Army Chief]

Good point -- I'll go ahead and start a new thread for SHOT 2010 banter.

AC