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  1. #1
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    A tale of... 3 carbines (the trifecta?)

    I posted this elsewhere and thought I'd re-post here for discussion.

    Long post ahead. Essentially I'm posting this to have a place to track my progress and thoughts as I work through this. The last project apparently was useful to a lot of people, so maybe this will be too.

    Those of you that know me might recall my "tale of two carbines" post from quite a few years ago. If not, it's pretty much re-posted here.

    These guns, and many of the concepts contained therein, have stood up surprisingly well since inception. A few things have changed that matter (I pretty much use X300s for white lights, exclusively, now) and several things have changed that don't (stocks, VFG length, etc.). However, since that time, my side-job as blogger and magazine writer meant that a LOT of new hotness came through my hands. What I found was that these two carbines stood up to all that new hotness without batting an eyelash. More recently, there have been improvements in a couple of tech areas (silencers, optics, and attachment methods) and changes in my own opinions (dedicated suppressed gun vs. on/off can) and interests (precision shooting, 3-gun) such that I felt an overhaul was in order.

    However, a few of the concepts have stood up well for me. Primary among them is maintaining as much commonality between the guns as possible, especially where it comes to the shooter interface (grips, stocks, controls, trigger, sight picture, etc.). I was also rather happy with the color-coding since it was a zero-cost option and helped me think about the guns in my mind but also spot them in the safe more easily. Plus, black guns are boring. However, I'm not into dips, drips, and coatings because they are added cost and I don't think the difference matters enough to actually pay for it.

    I decided to go with replacing the uppers and other parts rather than buy whole new carbines because I have two factory Colt SBR lowers that are big-pin, and one non-NFA big-pin lower (we're talking about FCG pins, not takedown/pivot pins, for those that don't understand). So it seemed prudent to keep the lowers, and engage in some fiddle-fart to get what I want. If I were starting from scratch I might be inclined to simply buy a couple of Daniel defense or KAC rifles in the lengths I want and call it good.

    I'm still working out the accumulation of parts and the swap-over, but here's where I'm headed.

    First, the use cases:

    Green Gun
    -"Home Defense"/SHTFantasy
    -Hog Hunting (buggy)

    Grey Gun
    -Competition (short courses)
    -New shooters (women, kids, with both irons and RDS)
    -Training classes ("carbine")
    -Travel (where legal)

    Tan Gun
    -Hog Hunting (stand/static)
    -Competition (long courses & Precision)
    -Training ("scoped" or "precision")
    -Plinking (public range, shoot from bench, new shooters or non-shooters)

    Then the configurations. Most of this is in the planning stages, and I'm working through the options. There are a LOT more choices today than there were when I did this the last time.

    Green Gun
    -10.3" DD Barrel (shortest I'm willing to go)
    -9.0 BCM KMR (standardized across all three guns with adjustment for length)
    -BCM BCG (good quality and consistency with other guns)
    -BCM Gunfighter CH (mild gasbusting ability, better latch)
    -Silencerco Omega (allows mounting on all three guns, plus any other rifle I might buy)
    -SLR Rifleworks Adjustable Gas Block (to tune gas to run fulltime suppressed, not 100% set on this make)
    -Brake mount for can (to protect blast baffle, gun will not be shot unsuppressed)
    -BCM Fixed Keymod VFG (no need to remove)
    -Noveske Keymod Covers (best covers I've found)
    -CMC Trigger (standardized across guns, one of few that makes for big pins, pull weight by use case)
    -Magpul BAD (on all guns, but for this one works well with Redimag)
    -Redimag (spare mag for HD)
    -Magpul CTR stock (QD socket plus ability to be locked for LOP)
    -Magpul MOE SL Grip (more vertical orientation, but includes backstrap)
    -Aimpoint PRO (I find the 30mm to be more forgiving)
    -Aero Precision mount (no need to remove)
    -BUIS (not settled on make yet leaning towards front and rear from BCM)

    Grey Gun
    complete upper
    -11.5" BCM ELW-F (allows slightly longer handguard for more flexibility)
    -10.0 BCM KMR (standardized across all three guns with adjustment for length)
    -BCM BCG (comes with upper)
    -BCM Gunfighter CH (better latch)

    -Hider mount for can (gun will rarely be shot suppressed, but why not have option)
    -BCM Fixed Keymod VFG (no need to remove)
    -Noveske Keymod Covers (best covers I've found)
    -CMC Trigger (standardized across guns, one of few that makes for big pins, pull weight by use case)
    -Magpul BAD (on all guns)
    -Magpul MOE stock (will add QD socket, no need to be locked for LOP)
    -Magpul MOE SL Grip (more vertical orientation, but includes backstrap)
    -Aimpoint H1 (lighter)
    -Scalarworks mount (light, QD for use with irons only)
    -BUIS (not settled on make yet leaning towards front and rear from BCM)

    Tan Gun
    complete upper
    -16" BCM stainless (for just a bit more precision potential)
    -13.0 BCM KMR (in this case, I want just a little barrel protruding for ports, etc.)
    -BCM BCG (comes with upper)
    -BCM Gunfighter CH (better latch)

    -Brake mount for can (to protect blast baffle, gun will not be shot unsuppressed)
    -BCM QD Keymod VFG (to be removed to avoid hanging up on dump barrel, when encountered)
    -Noveske Keymod Covers (best covers I've found)
    -CMC Trigger (standardized across guns, one of few that makes for big pins, pull weight by use case)
    -Magpul BAD (on all guns)
    -BCM A5 receiver extension (to further reduce recoil for competition)
    -Magpul STR stock (will close on A5, provides nicer cheek weld)
    -Magpul MOE K2+ Grip (seems better for "precision" but matches the grip angle of the SL)
    -1-6 Optic (not settled on this yet, leaning Leupold)
    -Aero Precision mount (no need to remove)
    -BUIS (not settled on make yet, but will be folding offset)
    Last edited by rob_s; 17 April 2015 at 02:49.
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  2. #2
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    Looks like a nice trio. I saw your facebook post giving the rundown on all the forums, so since this is weapon evolution, where are the pics? :)

    (Yes, I realize they aren't done yet, just couldn't resist a jab)
    Will - Owner of Arisaka LLC - http://www.arisakadefense.com

  3. #3
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    Very nice trio Rob - will be following your progress with great interest
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippers View Post
    Looks like a nice trio. I saw your facebook post giving the rundown on all the forums, so since this is weapon evolution, where are the pics? :)

    (Yes, I realize they aren't done yet, just couldn't resist a jab)
    Right now the Grey gun should be narrowing down on being "done" by the end of this week and the pics will commence!

    I'm chomping at the bit to order the upper for the Tan gun as well.
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  5. #5
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    rob, I thought you didn't like suppressors or were moving away from them? Maybe I read it wrong somewhere. Going with the omega because of weight vs like the specwar? Also, your thoughts on using CMC triggers vs say geissele?

  6. #6
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    Like Jerry said, look forward to see how these progress. The grey one has my interest the most.
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  7. #7
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    I don't, generally speaking, like cans. However, the advent of .308 cans in shorter/lighter packages allows me to spread the cost of the stupid across a lot of guns instead of localized to just one gun, or having to buy multiple cans. Having a <16 oz, <7" .308 can means I can use is for hogs, (possibly deer in florida soon), home defense, plinking, etc. Two years ago I would have had to buy 3 different cans for that.

    RE: the CMC vs. the Geissele, I'd prefer to use the latter but finding big-pin options available is difficult.
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  8. #8
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    Why the 10.3" and 11.5" barrel lengths? Seams like they are very close to the same setups and can me interchanged with very little difference. What was your rational on thus choice?
    "I have never heard anyone say after a firefight that I wish that I had not taken so much ammo.", ME

    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas !", General Sam Houston

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by docsherm View Post
    Why the 10.3" and 11.5" barrel lengths? Seams like they are very close to the same setups and can me interchanged with very little difference. What was your rational on thus choice?
    I no longer believe that having a single upper/gun that runs suppressed/unsuppressed is a good idea. Hence, if I want a suppressed gun, I want it set up to run only suppressed. By tuning the gas system for this I get a cleaner running suppressed shooting experience, hence the adjustable gas block. I'm not looking to ever re-adjust it, I want to tune it and forget it. Another option would be to buy a 14.5" barrel and cut it down to get a more ideal gas port size, something I may still do.

    If you look at the use-cases, the 10.3" is the fulltime suppressed gun for hog hunting and "home defense". The 11.5" gun is for training, competition, and new shooters where the reduced weight it more appreciated but where I feel better about an 11.5" barrel due to potential reliability concerns but also to get the associated longer handguard.
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  10. #10
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    I can see where you are going with this. What made you come to the conclusion that you no longer want to put on and take off a can on an upper?
    "I have never heard anyone say after a firefight that I wish that I had not taken so much ammo.", ME

    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas !", General Sam Houston

  11. #11
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    For setting up a dedicated suppressed gun, you may also want to look at the Baby Govnah gas block from MicroMOA. I have considered it for taming overgassed barrels. You may not like the need to pull parts off to tweak the port diameter, but it is truly a set it/forget it option with not parts to wear or fail.

    http://micromoa.com/baby-govnah/

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by docsherm View Post
    I can see where you are going with this. What made you come to the conclusion that you no longer want to put on and take off a can on an upper?
    Well, that's not *exactly* what I said. I will take the can on and off from time to time to use on other guns, but the 10.3" gun will only get fired suppressed. Or, more correctly, the 10.3" upper will only get fired suppressed, as I may swap the uppers across the SBRs depending on whether I want the heavier trigger and Redimag or the lighter trigger and lighter weight without the Redimag.

    Ideally, I'd put a direct-thread can on the 10.3" upper and be done. But I don't think that's a cost-effective solution since it will basically do what my current can does, which is sit in the safe and not get shot. I'm hoping that with the right can and mounts I'll get more use out of the can but still have a suppressed SHTFantasy gun.
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  13. #13
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    OK, so why are you only firing the 10.3" suppressed?
    "I have never heard anyone say after a firefight that I wish that I had not taken so much ammo.", ME

    "Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas !", General Sam Houston

  14. #14
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    Why the aero mount opposed to something like NF rings?

    (bad cs with aero)
    Last edited by Deckard; 8 April 2015 at 18:23.

  15. #15
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    Having a gun that is tuned to run suppressed is better than not.

    ETA:
    To elaborate...

    Shooting suppressed is dirty, smelly, and gassy. While this generally cannot be completely eliminated, it can be mitigated. There are several ways to do this (gas diverting forward assists, caulk, etc.), but the best, IME, is to tune the gun to input the least amount of gas necessary to the BCG. Tightening up the gas port is the best way I'm aware of to do that. Trying to tighten up the gas port to shoot suppressed and opening it back up to shoot unsuppressed is a no-go. For one, it's not tuned to the particular can/barrel/ammo/etc. so it has to allow in more gas on each setting that it would if it were custom tuned. For two, the fouling that gets in to these systems tends to lock up the moving parts eventually.

    Also, if the can is going to come on and off the gun, having a brake on a short gun just isn't something I'm interested in. However, if I can get a "saccrificial baffle" in the form of a brake mount, then that's a good thing.
    Last edited by rob_s; 8 April 2015 at 12:01.
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