Hodge Defense AU-Mod 2 vs Knights Armament SR-15 E3 Mod 2

[voodoo_man]

As awesome as Hodge AR's are.

They are no KAC's.

[SINNER]

That's the first I have heard that. Customer service is second to none with thousands of owners to back up my statement. The few issues I had over the years were fixed immediately with nothing but 100% professionalism. Gotta call Bullshit on that one. Lets see some hard facts to back up that statement. They sold over 50,00 rifles last year, how many did KAC sell?

I will not speak of other horror stories because I will not spread rumors but I will tell my horror story. I purchased one of the first pistols they sold in Maryland when they managed to get a AR15 pistol approved on the MSP roster. Never touched it until 8-10 months after I purchased it. Gun would not feed rounds and often would not even eject the spent case. Due to a policy change they made my LGS ship it back to them even though they literally are located 1/2 hour from him, a day after they delivered a 3k rifle in a company vehicle. After being in their possesion for over 6 months it was returned scratched up and after about 10 rounds the exractor came apart and locked it up tight. My LGS, as frustrated as me told me he would give me my purchase price toward any LWRC rifle I wanted on a batch he was waiting for.

When the rifles arrived it was laughable. Upper and lower Cerakoting was horrificly matched. Upper was twice the gloss of the lower. Then the real issues showed itself. None of the holes on the lower were reamed so the safety was so tight it was impossible to move the weapon off safe without breaking your grip, the take down pins were so stiff you needed a hammer and punch to remove the upper. Also the trigger pins were just driven through the lower and on one side the coating was damaged from the pins pushing through undersized holes. Barely Acceptable on a 1k gun, not even an option on a 2k+ one. I used my money towards another SCAR and never gave it a second thought.

And as far as many dealers dumping their line, during the last frenzy they started canceling multiple orders with dealers citing demand and low stock but suddenly there were multiple rifles showing up on Gunbroker at 1.5-2x cost from a FFL in Maryland that no one had ever heard of. That left a lot of bad blood with the dealers.

I have shot a good bit of their weapons and they functioned well but I would never purchase a thing from them again. Too many companies with good CS to deal with their bullshit ever again.

[voodoo_man]

I toured KAC HQ/Museum in Feb before I took a dual purpose rifle class (used an sr25) and got some more info on KAC that may shed some light here...

KAC's general public consumer sales (you and me) are less than 10% (probably even less than that) of their overall income. They don't care if the general public buys them, the MIL buys them in pallets.

Everything KAC does is through R&D, which is why it costs so much and why different year rifles may appear different or have different components (think m110 versus its predecessor 10 years ago). With that in mind, understand that KAC rifles are literally the Porsche of the AR15 world. They improve the original design, and improve that, and so forth and so on. Proprietary bolt? Yep, because it needs to be. Chrome lined barrel? Yep, because it provides longer life span.

During the class people were comparing the ECC to the Larue equivalent. Out of the box the Larue is much more accurate, without a doubt. But is it going to be as accurate, or even running after 20k rounds? The ECC will. (in its newest version anyway)

I have an SR15. I also have a bunch of other rifles and have owned an LWRC, have several friends who own both PWS's and LWRC's, I have a PWS rifle I EDC. At the last Warrior East Expo I sat and dug a hole in Jim Hodge's head for a few hours on the last day. The man knows what he's talking about and his rifles are built with the highest quality standards that there are. (http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/07/wa...2014.html#more at the bottom) I don't know the man from a can of paint but sitting there and talking to him I got the very genuine impression that he knows his AR15's. I will probably buy one eventually.

[JGifford]

With both the Hodge Defense AU-Mod 2 and Knights Armament SR-15 E3 Mod 2 M-Lok on the horizon which do you prefer? The MSRP on both is speculation, the Hodge at $2699.99 and the KAC at $2399.99. The current street price of a KAC SR-15 E3 Mod 2 Keymod is closer to $2150. Which rifle would you chose?

HDSI will have a better barrel.
KAC will arguably have a better gas system and bolt.

HDSI is a "cleaner" looking lower.
Al major components in the HDSI are reverse-compatible with mil-spec while KAC has many proprietary parts.

The HDSI carbine uses newer and better materials, cut by the best in the industry. I don't know who does KAC's cutting/forging.

I believe the HDSI carbine is a touch lighter.

Reed Knight owned the SOCOM market via contract for so long that KAC's reputation overshadows all the crap they've put out over the years, to the general public. Not that all KAC is crap, not at all, they make good stuff, but "KAC" doesn't always = "Good gear!" So, the mystique of the KAC name does zip for me. I do hold Kevin Boland and Jack Leuba in high regard, though, and that carries weight with me.

[caporider]

HDSI will have a better barrel.
KAC will arguably have a better gas system and bolt.

HDSI is a "cleaner" looking lower.
Al major components in the HDSI are reverse-compatible with mil-spec while KAC has many proprietary parts.

The HDSI carbine uses newer and better materials, cut by the best in the industry. I don't know who does KAC's cutting/forging.

I believe the HDSI carbine is a touch lighter.

Reed Knight owned the SOCOM market via contract for so long that KAC's reputation overshadows all the crap they've put out over the years, to the general public. Not that all KAC is crap, not at all, they make good stuff, but "KAC" doesn't always = "Good gear!" So, the mystique of the KAC name does zip for me. I do hold Kevin Boland and Jack Leuba in high regard, though, and that carries weight with me.

FWIW Kevin is now with FNHUSA as Manager, Federal Sales.

[SINNER]

HDSI will have a better barrel.
KAC will arguably have a better gas system and bolt.

HDSI is a "cleaner" looking lower.
Al major components in the HDSI are reverse-compatible with mil-spec while KAC has many proprietary parts.

The HDSI carbine uses newer and better materials, cut by the best in the industry. I don't know who does KAC's cutting/forging.

I believe the HDSI carbine is a touch lighter.

Reed Knight owned the SOCOM market via contract for so long that KAC's reputation overshadows all the crap they've put out over the years, to the general public. Not that all KAC is crap, not at all, they make good stuff, but "KAC" doesn't always = "Good gear!" So, the mystique of the KAC name does zip for me. I do hold Kevin Boland and Jack Leuba in high regard, though, and that carries weight with me.

That is nothing but speculation at best. Show some proof it's better and not a sales flyer. I will agree the Knights has had some lemons in the past but that is to be expected with any company rolling out the products and changes they have. Hodge has 1 overpriced rifle out at this point. Pretty easy to have great QC at the number they produce.

[gatordev]

KAC's general public consumer sales (you and me) are less than 10% (probably even less than that) of their overall income. They don't care if the general public buys them, the MIL buys them in pallets.

Word. Something that I think isn't as well known unless you do some research.

I've just been impressed with how my SR-15 does as a jack of all trades gun. For a lightweight carbine, it doesn't really fail at anything. Are there better tools for specific applications? Of course, but mine has worked very well across a wide range of uses.

Lightweight and handy for CQBR shooting with a RDS...check.
Want to shoot out to intermediate distances with at least an average, if not better, level of precision...check (Going past 400m with an ACOG and M193 was no problem).
Want to run it suppressed...check.
Want a smooth, Sunday afternoon plinker...check.
Don't want to clean the gun because it's Sunday evening...check...it'll still work fine 2 weeks from now.

I've had two show-stopper malfunctions with my SR-15, both were due to brass going back into the ejection port. I'm still not even sure how what happened happened, but otherwise it's been a fantastic weapon system.

Now, moving on up to SR-25s....yeah, there's some variability.

[voodoo_man]

Word. Something that I think isn't as well known unless you do some research.

I've just been impressed with how my SR-15 does as a jack of all trades gun. For a lightweight carbine, it doesn't really fail at anything. Are there better tools for specific applications? Of course, but mine has worked very well across a wide range of uses.

Lightweight and handy for CQBR shooting with a RDS...check.
Want to shoot out to intermediate distances with at least an average, if not better, level of precision...check (Going past 400m with an ACOG and M193 was no problem).
Want to run it suppressed...check.
Want a smooth, Sunday afternoon plinker...check.
Don't want to clean the gun because it's Sunday evening...check...it'll still work fine 2 weeks from now.

I've had two show-stopper malfunctions with my SR-15, both were due to brass going back into the ejection port. I'm still not even sure how what happened happened, but otherwise it's been a fantastic weapon system.

Now, moving on up to SR-25s....yeah, there's some variability.

When I bought my SR15, I put 1500 or so tula steel cased through it, because you know why not break it as fast possible?

One of the rounds didn't go off, once. Nothing attributed to the rifle, held about MOA.

[JGifford]

FWIW Kevin is now with FNHUSA as Manager, Federal Sales.

This is correct. He's enjoying his new job, and learning a thing or two about real traffic!

[JGifford]

That is nothing but speculation at best. Show some proof it's better and not a sales flyer. I will agree the Knights has had some lemons in the past but that is to be expected with any company rolling out the products and changes they have. Hodge has 1 overpriced rifle out at this point. Pretty easy to have great QC at the number they produce.

I don't really find the rifle over-priced.
The specs for the barrel and the pedigree speak for themselves. No need to speculate.

But really...reading between the lines...what are you asking? Why don't you directly spell out your question, and maybe I can answer it for you?

Example:

Q: "What makes the material in the upper/lower better than 7075 T-651 temper used in the KAC rifle and others?"

A: It's a few percentage points lighter, it has a higher tensile, crush, and compression strength, with greater resistance to cracking and crack propagation, and is much less reactive with the environment, especially maritime (roughly 300% less). Further, it is stiffer, and handles temperature extremes better.

Now, I think you meant to ask something similar about the barrel...

The barrel is an optimal profile (constant taper) cold hammer forged out of one of the best steels out there. The chrome lining is deposited thicker, and with a good deal of precision. The gas port is on the smaller side, similar to KAC and BCM's offerings. The result is a gun that shoots very smooth, and a barrel that will last a long time. I expect 0.8-1.2MOA from this barrel, based on other barrels of its ilk.

I do not know specifically who makes barrels for KAC, though, but I can look at the profile and tell you it's just a regular LW style profile. I don't know if it is made of the standard 4150CMV, or not, but I do know it is CHF. It's a darn good barrel, as well, and most will hold 1-1.5 MOA.

[JGifford]

Word. Something that I think isn't as well known unless you do some research.

I've just been impressed with how my SR-15 does as a jack of all trades gun. For a lightweight carbine, it doesn't really fail at anything. Are there better tools for specific applications? Of course, but mine has worked very well across a wide range of uses.

Lightweight and handy for CQBR shooting with a RDS...check.
Want to shoot out to intermediate distances with at least an average, if not better, level of precision...check (Going past 400m with an ACOG and M193 was no problem).
Want to run it suppressed...check.
Want a smooth, Sunday afternoon plinker...check.
Don't want to clean the gun because it's Sunday evening...check...it'll still work fine 2 weeks from now.

I've had two show-stopper malfunctions with my SR-15, both were due to brass going back into the ejection port. I'm still not even sure how what happened happened, but otherwise it's been a fantastic weapon system.

Now, moving on up to SR-25s....yeah, there's some variability.

The SR-15/16 is a great rifle. Preferences, sure, but it's a great rifle. I do not think anyone could find anything OBJECTIVELY bad about it.