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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglyduck View Post
    Like many I've debated this with myself for a while and kept quiet, mainly not to spark any unnecessary debate. However, W.E. is full of folks in the know so I'll break my silence since the odds are good that someone has valuable input and will offer constructive criticism/experiences.
    The Horus Talon http://www.horusvision.com/talon.php is short, light weight, and a non-caliber specific BDC. There isn't a lot of info out there but previous reviews have been positive with the exception of a non-daylight visible reticle when illuminated.
    Elcan has an interesting offer with the Spectre DR, but it has trouble maintaining zero from what I understand. This is 2nd hand info from some folks that rely on optics more than I, and it may have been limited to the units they received. But, when all their shooters normally shoot 1inch groups at 100yds then use the DR and shoot 10inch groups, it leads me (and them) to believe there's an issue with the optic. It has the lever system you spoke of Stick, and I'm sure everyone has seen or heard of it. It may be the cats meow but if it doesn't hold zero what good is it? So, I'm a little leery, especially at their price point.
    Finally, GRSC has some interesting offerings as well with the advent of their 1-6x variable with illuminated BDC reticle, which will be manufactured by Ellis optics in addition to their 1-4x. Previous 1-4x's were manufactured by Millett and it shares the same body and glass as the DMS-1. At $350 it has excellent value, and Ed is passionate about giving the gunfighter an edge with his optics and has excellent customer service.
    None of these optics meet my ideal 1-4x criteria but come close. No/Long battery life, light weight, daylight visible reticle, BDC, clear glass, good FOV, and both CQB and medium range capable. Hopefully Sticks prediction is correct, but for now I don't think any of the recent offerings are truly groundbreaking as far as 1-4x optics are concerned...but they are heading in the right direction. I apologize for the winded dissertation.
    The Horus 1x4 scope was one of my favorite scopes i ever had and regret selling it. I did a full review on it a couple of years ago. That reticle was great. Some people can't get used to it and say it is cluttered, but I didn't have any issues with it. The only reason I sold it was because they were supposed to come out with a newer version that they had removed the large center dot and had somehow incorporated a red dot into it. For some reason, they never released it. I was going to get a new one, but the Swarovski came along.

  2. #17
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    That is a lot of information on that Horus scope. Never seen anything like it.

  3. #18
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    Sounds like what we need is a 1x-3/4/6x variable review/guide, as there appear to be more worthy contenters in this game than we originally may have thought.

    If we stick just to the premium lines (i.e. those over $500), we're still looking at more than a half-dozen possible contenders ...

    Elcan (Specter DR)
    Ellis Optics (MK-7 Omega)
    Horus (Talon)
    IOR (1x/4x Tactical)
    Leupold (Mark 4 CQ/T)
    Meopta (MeoStar R1 KDot)
    Millet (DMS)
    Nightforce (NXS)
    Schmidt & Bender (Short Dot)
    Swarovski (Z6i)
    Trijicon (TR-21/24)
    US Optics (SN4S)
    Zeiss (Victory Varipoint)

    ... no doubt I've missed a couple, too. Not all of these are "tactical" glass per accepted definitions, but even so, it is increasingly hard to see the forest for the trees.

    AC
    Last edited by Army Chief; 26 January 2009 at 08:29.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulosantos View Post
    The Horus 1x4 scope was one of my favorite scopes i ever had and regret selling it. I did a full review on it a couple of years ago. That reticle was great. Some people can't get used to it and say it is cluttered, but I didn't have any issues with it. The only reason I sold it was because they were supposed to come out with a newer version that they had removed the large center dot and had somehow incorporated a red dot into it. For some reason, they never released it. I was going to get a new one, but the Swarovski came along.
    Paulo, your review was the one I was refering to! Its one of the few reviews I've ever seen on the Talon. It looks as though Horus replaced the previous H47 reticle with the dot in the center with the newer H50 circle/crosshair design. Some units within the military have used their more powerful optics for bolt guns but the 1-4x hasn't caught on anywhere from what I can tell. Rumor has it that if you take one of their classes you get a scope upon completion. I don't know if there's any truth to that though. They're a tough company to reach, I tried to contact them regarding dealers but was unsuccesful. G&R Tactical is an internet dealer though. I would really like to see one "in the flesh"
    -Mitch-

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglyduck View Post
    Paulo, your review was the one I was refering to! Its one of the few reviews I've ever seen on the Talon. It looks as though Horus replaced the previous H47 reticle with the dot in the center with the newer H50 circle/crosshair design. Some units within the military have used their more powerful optics for bolt guns but the 1-4x hasn't caught on anywhere from what I can tell. Rumor has it that if you take one of their classes you get a scope upon completion. I don't know if there's any truth to that though. They're a tough company to reach, I tried to contact them regarding dealers but was unsuccesful. G&R Tactical is an internet dealer though. I would really like to see one "in the flesh"
    The model they were supposed to come out with is the H48 Reticle. I even had the Brouchure and it was up on the website for a while. I usually got my Horus scopes from G&R Tactical or Horus directly. There is also a guy on SipersHide that is a dealer. That would be cool if you got a free scope upon completion of the class.

    I honestly don't know why that scope hasn't caught on. I love the Non-Caliber Specific Reticles. I've tried and tried to get Trijicon to make an ACOG with non-caliber specific reticles but they don't want to hear it. I even sent them ideas on reticles that they could use and they didn't want to hear it, so I'm not too happy with them. Here are some of the ideas:



  6. #21
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    AC, good idea. I'm willing to contribute what I can. Paulo, I've heard Ed from GRSC also approached Trijicon with BDC type reticle options and received little welcome. It seems they aren't interested although I'm sure its more complicated than that. Engineering challenges are surely a factor. A fiber optic lit reticle with a battery backup/enhancement would be ideal. The two you posted look great, I really like the 2nd one. Too bad they didn't take, I think this market is larger than some manufacturers believe it is and would be extremely popular and in high demand, especially with an electrical system like Aimpoint or Eotech like Stick suggested.
    -Mitch-

  7. #22
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    Some companies are narrow on the market they want to target.. but it's not a bad thing for them. Some are too small to expand, other are too narrow minded, and some just don't have the capability. Once one company expands to fill a hole, the others will jump in and try to take the pie.. but who wants to risk their capitol to design it.

  8. #23
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    For the moment, I'm still getting all of the Short Dot configurations straight in my head ... with a little help from Mark Cromwell at S&B USA.

    One of the things that Mark provided that was most helpful was a comparison of the old 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (FFP) model and the new 1.1-4x24 Zenith LE (SFP) variant.

    Basic Short Dot Comparison

    1.1-4x20 Short Dot
    First Focal plane
    5.6 MOA dot at 100m (1.1-4x)
    10.6” Overall length
    18.5 oz.
    FOV on 1.1: 96ft / 100yds
    4 interchangeable BDC’s (Optional*)
    Non-Locking Illumination (Optional*)
    Non-Locking Windage (Optional*)
    No spare battery provisions
    “CQB” & #7 reticles (Slight blue tint)

    1.1-4x24 Zenith SD LE
    Second Focal plane
    5.6 MOA (1.1) -1.5 MOA (4x)
    11.4” (Old) 10.1”(New) OAL
    19.5 oz.
    FOV on 1.1: 108ft / 100yds
    Calibrated for M855 **
    Locking Illumination
    Non-Locking Elevation (Optional*)
    Locking Elevation
    Zenith “Posicon” under cap
    Spare battery under cap
    FD2 & FD7 reticles w/ No Tint
    FDP3 reticle (Winter 2008)

    * Features found on the Locking Short Dot with calibrated locking turrets.
    ** Calibrated for 75 grain Hornady TAP & M118LR on special order only.


    AC
    Last edited by Army Chief; 28 January 2009 at 02:42.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uglyduck View Post
    AC, good idea. I'm willing to contribute what I can. Paulo, I've heard Ed from GRSC also approached Trijicon with BDC type reticle options and received little welcome. It seems they aren't interested although I'm sure its more complicated than that. Engineering challenges are surely a factor. A fiber optic lit reticle with a battery backup/enhancement would be ideal. The two you posted look great, I really like the 2nd one. Too bad they didn't take, I think this market is larger than some manufacturers believe it is and would be extremely popular and in high demand, especially with an electrical system like Aimpoint or Eotech like Stick suggested.
    The only they would be willing to do it was if I paid approximately 100k in advance or if a dealer would foot t
    e bill for the scopes. They had a minimum amount of scopes they would have to sell. And I thought I was doing them a favor and helping them out with the idea. I did speak with Ed a couple of times on the phone about it. He's a super nice guy.

  10. #25
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    how does the elcan specter dr score ? It has a 1-4x magnification - at a flick of a lever-,a good compact shape and a clear sight picture. Atleast that was the impression I had.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulosantos View Post
    The only they would be willing to do it was if I paid approximately 100k in advance or if a dealer would foot t
    e bill for the scopes. They had a minimum amount of scopes they would have to sell. And I thought I was doing them a favor and helping them out with the idea. I did speak with Ed a couple of times on the phone about it. He's a super nice guy.
    I'll pitch in 50K if you spot the other half...guarantee that we would make the money back. Ed's new 1-6x looks promising, I hope he releases some more information soon.
    -Mitch-

  12. #27
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    Blasted a 170 pound boar the other night using a S&B 1.5-6x42mm Zenith FlashDot -- a very near cousin of the Short Dot LE -- and I've got to say that the more I use this glass, the more impressed I am with S&B.

    The Short Dot may not be perfect, but it's admittedly treading mighty close to it for my purposes.

    AC

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    how does the elcan specter dr score ? It has a 1-4x magnification - at a flick of a lever-,a good compact shape and a clear sight picture. Atleast that was the impression I had.
    Does anybody have any experience with the Elcan SpecterDR? I hear it's heavy and can't match the battery life of the EOTech...

  14. #29
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    I am really liking this optic right now. Fast up close and good at distance. Swarovski's 1-6. The illumination is good even in the brightest sun light which is rare here in Alaska.



    Here it sits atop my Noveske N4 upper with a Saber Defense lower I assembled with a Geissle trigger.


    I also like the Aimpoint with a 3x Magnifier as well as seen here on my Colt. Not sure which is best overall yet. Still playing with both.



    I believe the future is in the 1-4 -6 power variables. That is the direction everybody seems to be going form the military to 3 gun shooters.
    Pat
    Colt M16/AR15/ 1911 & Glock Armorer.
    Certified Firearms Instructor & Urban Rifle Instructor.
    Completed SWAT Entry Team and SWAT Sniper courses.
    NRA Endowment Member
    IDPA Expert level shooter in CDP, ESP and SSP. USPSA B class

  15. #30
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    Interesting.. someone stated that they thought the Swarovski's 1-6 wasn't bright enough (on page 1).

    I have a Eotech 553 with the 3x magifier.. works pretty well too. I sometimes put the magnifier with my T-1. :)

    Wish they had Stickman's suggestion of add or remove magnifications at a flip of a switch.

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