Red Dot/Holographic Site discussion

[tact]

The paperwork does not take really very long at all........it's not like waiting on a form 1 or form 4.

Additionally as pointed out earlier changing the configuration or length is not a big deal which is why they tell you to just put the shortest length you think you might use on the form 1 so that it basically covers everything.

[DutyUse]

Moving and simply transporting are actually two different things but such paperwork does not take really very long at all........it's not like waiting on a form 1 or form 4.

Additionally as pointed out earlier changing the configuration or length is not a big deal which is why they tell you to just put the shortest length you think you might use on the form 1 so that it basically covers everything.

Okay I put 10.3 on my paperwork. If I get in the 300BO game can I not put a 8" barrel on legally?

[tact]

As long as you can put the original configuration you put on your paperwork back together. So don't get rid of whatever your original OAL was. So when I said put the shortest length it isn't really necessary......just something I do ...sorry.

[alamo5000]

Thanks for the responses. That clarified that one aspect up for me. Honestly I am (or have been) extremely mobile and with the way the world is now economy wise there is no telling where I might have to go. Ideally I won't be moving off anywhere. Just the thought of filling out state income tax forms makes me shudder. Texas has no state income tax. We just have to file federal and that's it. I've lived in other states and that stuff sucks. That said I along with a few million other people have had a very hard time getting meaningful work. That said in a worst case scenario that I do end up somewhere I do have a secure place where I can put all my guns. That said it is food for thought. I will still probably go ahead and do it because I do have a place to put the stuff if I need to. My dad is on the trust with me so if I leave it at his house it's no problem.

[Deadwing]

Okay I put 10.3 on my paperwork. If I get in the 300BO game can I not put a 8" barrel on legally?

You'd be 100% legal removing the 10.3" upper and installing an 8" upper on an SBR'd lower, regardless of what length is on the form 1 or form 4. Changing barrel length is a temporary change in the eyes of the ATF. Only way i could ever see it causing problems is if you registered it as a 10.3 and then sold the gun as an SBR with the 8" barrel, and 8" is the length that got listed on the form 4. When the ATF compared the length listed on the form 4 of your buyer and it didn't match the length of the form 1 or form 4 you used to acquire the weapon, they'd send a correction letter stating their records show the barrel length as being 10.3" and kick the form back to be corrected before approving the transfer. Bottom line is, once you have the approved form 1 or 4 and stamp in hand, no one cares one lick what length barrel you have on your registered lower.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.

[DutyUse]

You'd be 100% legal removing the 10.3" upper and installing an 8" upper on an SBR'd lower, regardless of what length is on the form 1 or form 4. Changing barrel length is a temporary change in the eyes of the ATF. Only way i could ever see it causing problems is if you registered it as a 10.3 and then sold the gun as an SBR with the 8" barrel, and 8" is the length that got listed on the form 4. When the ATF compared the length listed on the form 4 of your buyer and it didn't match the length of the form 1 or form 4 you used to acquire the weapon, they'd send a correction letter stating their records show the barrel length as being 10.3" and kick the form back to be corrected before approving the transfer. Bottom line is, once you have the approved form 1 or 4 and stamp in hand, no one cares one lick what length barrel you have on your registered lower.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.

Haha thanks bro

[Hmac]

Actually NFA weapons are the ENTIRE weapon. That's why it has caliber and barrel length on the form. Changing uppers on a NFA registered lower is a gray area at best. By the letter of the law it's illegal. BATFE has given an interpretation that a temporary change is OK but a permanent change requires written notification be made to the BATFE. Placing a 16" barrel on a SBR'ed lower does not make it non SBR'ed and you must still fill out the 5320.20 form to travel across state lines.

ATF has an FAQ on NFA weapons. Once you have a stamp for the lower indicating that you've paid the tax, you can put any length barrel in any calilber on that lower as long as you "retain control of the parts necessary to return it to its registered configuration". If you want to take the weapon out of state, you can file a Form 5320.20. It used to take about 2 weeks. Now I'm told it can run a month to 6 weeks. If you put a 16+ upper on that SBR receiver, it immediately becomes a "non-SBR" rifle. As a standard GCA, Title I weapon, it is completely removed from the purview of the NFA. It can be taken out of state without paperwork. Other people not on your trust can borrow and shoot the weapon as they desire. You can even sell it as a GCA firearm (as long as you don't "retain control" of the SBR parts).

[BoilerUp]

You'd be 100% legal removing the 10.3" upper and installing an 8" upper on an SBR'd lower, regardless of what length is on the form 1 or form 4. Changing barrel length is a temporary change in the eyes of the ATF. Only way i could ever see it causing problems is if you registered it as a 10.3 and then sold the gun as an SBR with the 8" barrel, and 8" is the length that got listed on the form 4. When the ATF compared the length listed on the form 4 of your buyer and it didn't match the length of the form 1 or form 4 you used to acquire the weapon, they'd send a correction letter stating their records show the barrel length as being 10.3" and kick the form back to be corrected before approving the transfer. Bottom line is, once you have the approved form 1 or 4 and stamp in hand, no one cares one lick what length barrel you have on your registered lower.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice.

This really highlights the absurdity of the situation in Washington (state): swapping a barrel/upper on an SBR is "temporary", yet swapping a 16" or greater barrel for a short barrel in order to SBR the rifle via Form 1 is considering "manufacturing" and therefore not allowed. Asshats.

[SINNER]

Not all SBR's are that simple. The law covers much more than AR pattern weapons.

[Hmac]

This really highlights the absurdity of the situation in Washington (state): swapping a barrel/upper on an SBR is "temporary", yet swapping a 16" or greater barrel for a short barrel in order to SBR the rifle via Form 1 is considering "manufacturing" and therefore not allowed. Asshats.

That's the NFA, not Washington state. Putting a less-than-16-inch barrel on any Title 1 firearm is "manufacturing" (or "making") according to the National Firearms Act. That's true in all states.

[Deadwing]

If you put a 16+ upper on that SBR receiver, it immediately becomes a "non-SBR" rifle. As a standard GCA, Title I weapon, it is completely removed from the purview of the NFA. It can be taken out of state without paperwork. Other people not on your trust can borrow and shoot the weapon as they desire. You can even sell it as a GCA firearm (as long as you don't "retain control" of the SBR parts).

That's the way i read the law as well. However, i think it's important to note that it only temporarily removes the weapon from the purview of the NFA when a 16" or greater upper is attached to your SBR'd lower. You can still throw your SBR upper on it and be 100% good to go. But, writing the ATF and asking that the weapon be removed from the registry will revert said weapon back to non-NFA status, your stamp and Form 1 or 4 will no longer be valid, and you will have committed a felony by attaching an upper with a barrel length less than 16". You or any future owner could then once again file a Form 1 and "make" an SBR with it upon approval, and once again fall under the NFA.

This really highlights the absurdity of the situation in Washington (state): swapping a barrel/upper on an SBR is "temporary", yet swapping a 16" or greater barrel for a short barrel in order to SBR the rifle via Form 1 is considering "manufacturing" and therefore not allowed. Asshats.

I couldn't agree more. The spirit of the WA SBR law was to bring state law into alignment with federal law. Federal law allows individuals or trusts, etc to make an SBR upon approval of a Form 1. Making something is a perfectly legitimate means of acquiring something, and the state law allows individuals to acquire SBRs. But the wording in the RCW state it is unlawful for any person to "assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle". So i guess by that wording, if something breaks on my legally acquired SBR (via a Form 4, since Form 1s are a no-no at the moment), i would technically be breaking the law by fixing it! Absurd doesn't even scratch the surface of the situation here in WA.

[Hmac]

That's the way i read the law as well. However, i think it's important to note that it only temporarily removes the weapon from the purview of the NFA when a 16" or greater upper is attached to your SBR'd lower. You can still throw your SBR upper on it and be 100% good to go. But, writing the ATF and asking that the weapon be removed from the registry will revert said weapon back to non-NFA status, your stamp and Form 1 or 4 will no longer be valid, and you will have committed a felony by attaching an upper with a barrel length less than 16". You or any future owner could then once again file a Form 1 and "make" an SBR with it upon approval, and once again fall under the NFA.

According to the ATF's most recent FAQ on SBR/SBS 's that's how they read the law as well.

The NFA firearm is removed from the NFA purview and is not an SBR as long as it has a 16+ upper on it as long as you don't "retain control" of the SBR parts. They do suggest that you notify them if it's permanently not going to be an SBR, but it's not required. As to taking the rifle out of town if it has the 16+ upper, that's fine without a 5320.20 as long as you leave the short-barrel upper at home.

[BoilerUp]

That's the NFA, not Washington state. Putting a less-than-16-inch barrel on any Title 1 firearm is "manufacturing" (or "making") according to the National Firearms Act. That's true in all states.

Kind of. The mismatch is that the Federal law uses "make", which is very broad, but state law says "manufacture". Swapping an upper or even a barrel on an AR is not manufacturing by any reasonable definition. That's like saying you manufactured your car because you changed the tire.

[JGifford]

Alamo I've using an SRS02 for sometime now and love mine. The only complaint I have about mine is that you will get a reflection of the emitter if you point it directly into extremely bright light, but the light it takes to get that reflection is so bright that I can't see to aim looking into it. The reason I like the SRS so much is the FOV is incredible, that's its biggest strength. My other RDS's are just as good till I'm shooting around barricades or transitioning from strong to weak side, this is where the SRS shines. But different RDS's work different for each individual, most of my friends swear by their Aimpoint Micros. I like my Micro but prefer my SRS because I'm quicker with it.

I played with one at SWFA a month ago and found it to be terrible. Even in their showroom indoor lighting the reflection was absurd. I won't even say "it's your eyes vs. mine". It was so hideous that it's not a matter of opinion. Your SRS must be different physically from the one I played with at SWFA is all I can come up with.

[Farva]

only to 'wish' that I had gone shorter or if I go short that I wish I went a little longer etc.

Every mans struggle...

If you find yourself in Oklahoma your more than welcome to come get some trigger time on my SBR, my cousin has several of his own and several suppressors etc.