Noveske vs LWRC

[JustMatt]

Thanks for the info guys. I appreciate it. If I can't find a N4 separately can anyone recommend a equivalent. I would prefer a chrome lined barrel over stainless. Correct me if I'm wrong but chromed barrels last longer than stainless correct?

[Army Chief]

Your statement would be correct in the overwhelming majority of cases, but Noveske's stainless is actually a much harder steel than the norm, so the usual endurance issues don't really come into play like they otherwise might.

AC

[ballistic]

Thanks for the info guys. I appreciate it. If I can't find a N4 separately can anyone recommend a equivalent. I would prefer a chrome lined barrel over stainless. Correct me if I'm wrong but chromed barrels last longer than stainless correct?

Sabre Defence makes a great 16" Government contour, midlength, 1/7 twist chrome lined Vanadium alloy, stress relieved barrel. I picked one up recently from Rainier Arms.

[JustMatt]

Your statement would be correct in the overwhelming majority of cases, but Noveske's stainless is actually a much harder steel than the norm, so the usual endurance issues don't really come into play like they otherwise might.

So what would the life expectancy be of a Noveske SS barrel and is there anything special needed to care for a SS barrel?

Ballistic,
I'm on the wait list with Rainier and Bravo Company for notification on a Sabre Defense barrel. Ive hear good things about them as well. At the moment I would prob buy up one or more of each if they became available.

[Army Chief]

Matt,

Here's an attempt to provide a $5.00 answer to your 25-cent question. :)

Seems like I keep referring back to this single Defense Review interview with John Noveske lately, but he revealed some things there that just aren't easy to get out of Grant's Pass otherwise.

On the SS barrel longevity and care issue, the first question is obviously that of durability, since we've been conditioned to believe that no stainless barrel is ever going to approach the service life of a standard MILSPEC M-16 barrel. I defer to John's words here:

Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor's shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor...I used to work there, and now what's goin' on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Crane: What type of stainless are they using?

Noveske: Well, they use 416 project 70. I use a different type of material.

Crane: And what about the standard steel barrels? What kind of steel is that?

Noveske: Let me back up. You can't call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it's gonna' be much different. It's gonna' be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it's a lot harder than any stainless we've ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that's harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel. [emphasis added]

John goes on in the interview to describe the rare (and costly) Extreme-Duty Barrel that was once produced by Noveske Rifleworks, but discontinued because of prohibitive production costs. Interestingly, this was/is a 17-4 stainless barrel with a Rockwell hardness of 38.

Now, I'm not a metallurgist by any means, but I know that hardness tends to equal longevity, so what we're talking about here represents a fundamental shift in our baseline thinking with respect to stainless tubes.

Still later, John is responding to questions about his proprietary rifling in the stainless barrels and the "round count" question came up:

Crane: And how many rounds are you gonna' get out of that?

Noveske: I don't know. I know of barrels that are over 15,000 rounds still in service. So, I don't know how long they'll go, but I know that they're going quite a ways.

There is more (for example, the revelation that Noveske's chrome-lined barrels get a conventional MILSPEC rifling, rather than the improved polygonal), and when specifically asked about end-use applications (i.e. 3-gun, rapid fire, etc.) as they might relate to stainless versus standard, John took the position that "either one's fine."

Obviously, the accuracy edge goes to the stainless as well, but my overriding point is simply that a Noveske stainless barrel is a different animal than a competitors stainless barrel.

The barrel care issue isn't really as involved as you might think. If you refer specifically to Noveske's Barrel Break-In & Cleaning Techniques .pdf, the only comments specific to the stainless barrels have to do with proper cleaning of the polygonal rifling:

SPECIAL NOTE FOR POLYGONAL BARRELS:

Polygonal barrels will be marked with the twist rate followed by a capital "P,” for example, 7P, 8P, and so on. Polygonal rifling does not have the steep sides to the lands as a standard barrel does, therefore the cleaning brush may not track with the twist of the rifling. Barrels marked 7PT will be easier to clean than 7P. 7PT Rifling is an improvement which aids in the brush tracking with the rifling. The cleaner must install the brush to the rod tightly; holding the rod between the fingers using both hands. Push the rod in while twisting it to the right, (clockwise). You will feel the rod twist. Be sure not to let the brush skip over the lands. Once you push the brush through, remove the brush from the cleaning rod. Pull the cleaning rod out of the barrel and repeat the process. Do not pull the brush back through the barrel.

Obviously, your results may vary, but the SS tubes represent the best barrels that Noveske has to offer, and a lot of thought has gone into making them not just equal to conventional steel equivalents, but better in virtually every measurable way. Cost is a factor, of course, but if you've been shying away from stainless because of conventional wisdom, Noveske's might be worthy of a second-look.

AC

[JustMatt]

Thanks Chief, I went back and looked over that link you sent me with the John Noveske interview and I prob could have answered my own question! But thanks for anserwing me anyway, I feel like a pain in the arse.

[Army Chief]

PIA? No way, brother. You asked an intelligent question, and I'm sure many others were just as interested in the answer ... which is why I thought this one warranted a more detailed explanation.

AC

[MerQ]

If the choice was between Noveske and LWRC there's really no choice IMO. Noveske all the way.

I admit I'm somewhat biased and I was almost taken into the LWRC rage a few years ago. I haven't dealt with them since but I will say a lot of the problem I had came from the company being new, over promising, and under delivering on promises and timelines. I certainly hope this has changed but it left a really bad taste in my mouth to the point where I don't foresee me ever dealing with the company again. Others have been extremely happy and it seemed if you were in "the circle" you got products right away provided you'd be a cheerleader for them.

Noveske on the other hand was 100% professional and straight forward. The first time I talked to one of the CS ladies. I forgot her name but she was very helpful. When she couldn't answer a question she put John on the phone. He gave me realistic delivery times, information concerning the products and when I told him I didn't want to wait 3+ months at the time he pointed me toward one of his authorized dealers for a build who had barrels on hand. I ended up having the rifle built by Denny's Guns (he's A++ too) and I have no regrets.

[12131]

If I were to have only one AR type weapon, it would be one of the DI varieties. While not a negative comment about the quality of LWRC, the various piston systems are proprietary and parts availability can't compete with DI.

Very important point.

[JustMatt]

While DI definetly has more available parts you could also look at it as being a quick/easy/cheap fix to replace piston parts with DI if your piston breaks and replacement parts are unavailable. I'm actually going to do that exact thing with my current build and keep a DI parts bin in case my piston system go's kablueey. But the piston kit i'm going to use is manufactured 10 minutes from my home so that helps a bit!

[Chainring]

I've got a Noveske 12.5 upper and I love it. My only problem is that I got a suppressor a few months ago and it makes my lovely little Noveske FILTHY! I didn't like cleaning my guns before, and now I have to do it about 3 times as often. SO...I just ordered an LWRC M6A3 14.7 inch hoping to help that. I never really thought about what Noveske says in that interview - duh - the grime IS coming back through the chamber so I am probably expecting a little too much from the LWRC. HOWEVER, my Dad just picked up an LWRC M6A2 that I found and we sighted it in and shot it a little the other day. After about 100 rounds, the carrier, bolt, and inside of the receiver was still immaculate! Say what you want to, I call that an improvement! I went home and cleaned my rifle and contemplated what I had seen.

I still think that if one wanted the absolute most accurate and highest quality AR that could be had, one would call Noveske.

But I'm fixin' to try LWRC!