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  1. #16
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    Oops, I guess I miss interpreted the post. Sorry Stick. This is my current themed build. I have most of the parts I mentioned except the barrel and gas system. But I think it would make a decent torture test for some top of the line parts.

  2. #17
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    Well, your goal seems to fall in line pretty well with the target of this exercise.

    Which BCG were you looking at trying, Stick?
    Will this be fed low end ammunition (will affect buffer choice)
    Is budget going to be a consideration if possible (e.g. to demonstrate how affordable an utterly reliable AR-15 can be, or is this a no-expenses spared endurance machine?)
    The suppressor provision is the last open question I can think of. I'm assuming QD (so it can be ran on extreme firing schedules if desired, or if placed on the Wolf diet), and the choice would be among the AAC line (M4-2000 or SPR-M4)

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehLlama View Post
    Well, your goal seems to fall in line pretty well with the target of this exercise.

    Which BCG were you looking at trying, Stick? No idea at this point, I think there are a lot of quality ones out there. If someone thinks that one will work better than another, I'm open to it. I've kicked around the idea of the LMT enhanced, but thats just an idea at this point.

    Will this be fed low end ammunition (will affect buffer choice)? Its going to be fed everything, with the possible exception of Wolf as I really just don't do much with Wolf ammo. I don't have anything against it, with the exception of disliking that they raised their prices so much.

    Is budget going to be a consideration if possible (e.g. to demonstrate how affordable an utterly reliable AR-15 can be, or is this a no-expenses spared endurance machine?) I don't expect this one to be on the cheap side. Actually, it might lean towards the obscene side when you figure in what I want to do with it. Most people don't build a weapon not caring if their parts break. We will be actively encouraging it to happen, at least within realistic means.

    The suppressor provision is the last open question I can think of. I'm assuming QD (so it can be ran on extreme firing schedules if desired, or if placed on the Wolf diet), and the choice would be among the AAC line (M4-2000 or SPR-M4) It would be nice to use a can, and the QD would allow us to run a can at times, and pull it as needed. Thats not carved in stone at this point.


    Matt- I think its pretty cool that you are making a build along similar lines.

  4. #19
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    Stick- Me to, i'm interested to see how it will compare to my piston gun. Hopefully I'll get it done soon enough to kinda compare it to your torture test build. Bye the way, all the info from this site is helping me out a lot. Everyone on here seems more apt to provide help and good advice then some other forums.

  5. #20
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    Well, you can always get plenty of advice on "some other forums," of course; it just doesn't tend to be good advice much of the time. LOL

    I suspect we'll have more than a few informal torture test carbines come out of this, but when you consider what a lot of bone-stock military carbines go through, it will be interesting to see to what degree we're able to improve upon the formula by hand-selecting certain components and systems.

    Seems like there might be a story behind the story here: what was the genesis for this idea, Stick? It might help us make more informed decisions if we had just a bit more background.

    AC

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Army Chief View Post

    Seems like there might be a story behind the story here: what was the genesis for this idea, Stick? It might help us make more informed decisions if we had just a bit more background.

    AC

    I spent the morning with some senior NCOs discussing weapon and equipment issues, and this project was brought up. They asked the same question. Why work this writeup/ project, when the system has been out for so long.

    My answer back to them was to question what the overall thought was when people asked about a durable and reliable weapon. What was the first weapon that jumped into their head, or into the head of their troops. How many people have heard someone say or write online, "If you want durability and reliability, buy an AK".


    One of the Sgts pointed out to me that he was recently told of a low speed team that ran convoys, and didn't clean their weapons for months at a time unless they were involved in a shooting engagement. This is not intended to be a slam against guys running convoys, but this is a good example of poor leadership and training. How can these guys come back and complain when they slather a weapon with CLP, then run around with it in the dust for a couple months, let sludge build up and congeal, the bitch about weapon issues?!

    Lets talk about my brothers and sisters in Law Enforcement for a bit, as they are certainly not above this issue by any stretch. How many instructors have run a firing qual that everyone has known about for months, and had a cop show up a couple minutes early to tell them that their bolt is frozen shut, and there may or may not be a round in the chamber.... No, the military is not alone in having troops that have low weapons skills. How many LE firearm instructors have seen a weapon or piece of equipment come in broken, and the answer from the officer is "No idea what happened, it just broke".


    Certain issues, like the above are going to be beyond the scope of this project. One of the NCOs asked that he be involved, and of course my answer was yes. He mentioned that he assumed that cleaning was going to be a low priority based on our discussion. My reply was that I wanted to keep things as realistic as possible. Any LE or MIL is going to clean their weapon at a certain point, so excluding cleaning is not reasonable in my mind. I don't expect a rigorous cleaning schedule, but it still has to be done at a certain point. We aren't talking white glove inspection here, simply periodic wipe downs, or actual cleanings every thousand rounds. I feel that it is highly unlikely that MIL would be engaging in 1,000 rounds without any form of maintenance, care, or cleaning. For LE, its a moot point, it will never happen.

    This brought up the next topic. How much abuse can we give this weapon.... Speaking to guys who I have served with, and who have recently gotten back from desert deployments, I knew this would be something they would be asking. I replied back with a question of my own asking, "Is it possible that a troop might drop a weapon off a HMV"? The immediate answer was yes. My reply was that if its realistic, than do it. If we know it will kill a weapon through intent, don't do it. We don't need someone to run over a carbine with a tracked vehicle to let us know it may cause problems.


    Is a quality built AR15 a fragile system that needs to be babied? I think not.

  7. #22
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    Stick - I hate to keep bringing up LWRC in my post's but SWAT magazine just ran a 10 month torture test article on 3 LWRCI guns that seem's to be in line with what your looking to do. It was a good read and sounds like it could be a good comparison to use being that the piston system's are supposed to be more durable/reliable than the DI system.

  8. #23
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    At this time, we are not able to do piston vs DI gun testing. I believe to do this, you would need a heavy sampling of DI AR15s, and piston weapons from different manufacturers. Then you would need to replicate the same firing sequences and conditions for all weapons, including PCM.

    I am aware that piston weapons can be very reliable and durable, but thats part of the problem, many people are starting to think its a must.
    Last edited by Stickman; 13 February 2009 at 17:26.

  9. #24
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    I ment it only as a similar test as to what your planning on. More as a reference and comparison. Sorry, should have been more clear.

  10. #25
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    Not a problem at all.


    Back to the original idea, any more thoughts on what components will hold up, and what wouldn't?

  11. #26
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    Will sling or sling mounting accessories be a part of the component testing?

    Either the VCAS Padded Short QD, or MagPul Dynamics would be my top two choices... other opinions?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TehLlama View Post
    Will sling or sling mounting accessories be a part of the component testing?

    Either the VCAS Padded Short QD, or MagPul Dynamics would be my top two choices... other opinions?
    I'm a huge fan of the Vikings V-Tac padded sling. We have them on our patrol rifles.

  13. #28
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    Stick, if you guys are worried about cleaning and maintenance, just make it a policy that after every range session, you have to clean your weapon before you leave. No excuses. Even if you have to leave for any reason, we have two or three guys help that guys out just to get a decent cleaning.

  14. #29
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    Handguard: LMT MRP
    Reason: I just wanted a system in which I can change the barrel out quickly. It was between the LMT MRP and the XCR.

    Sights: Troy fron tand rear BUIS.
    Reason: Low profile and I prefer the same plane rear aperature.

    Optic: Swarovski Z6i 1x6 illuminated CDi reticle.
    Reason: Veratility.

    Grip: Magpul Miad.
    Reason: I like the ability to use different grips and for the storage.

    Stock: Vltor E-Mod.
    Reason: Comfortable, affordable, and holds plenty of batteris.

    Barrel including length: LMT 16" Piston barrel.
    Reason: I always wanted to try thr piston system out. Glad I did. What took me so long????

    LPK/Trigger: Bushmaster lower with WOA tuned RRA.
    Reason: I love the 2-stage triggers. The WOA tuned RRA is one of the most reliable 2-stage triggers out there. As soon as it craps out, I will replace it with the Geiselle SSA.

    Buffer: Regular Carbine Buffer.
    Reason: I use whatever buffer it takes to get the brass to eject at the 3-4 o'clock position. In this upper, the regular carbine buffer did it.

    BCG: LMT BCG
    Reason: That's what came with the upper. If it was a DI, I would use the regular LMT.

    Upper Rec: LMT MRP.
    Reason: See above.

    Lower Rec: Bushmaster.
    Reason: Because most lower receivers are pretty much the same.

    Magazine: Magpul PMags and C-Products.
    Reason: They both work well.

    Lights/lasers/etc: Pentagon Stealth light.
    Reason: Works great and was affordable.

    Charging Handle: Regular.
    Reason:

    Flash Hider/Comp: FSC556.
    Reason: Because I live in NJ and have to have a permanently attached muzzle brake, so I chose the FSC556 because it is the closest brake out there to an A2 flash hider.

    Misc Stuff rail covers etc: Grip-Pod.
    Reason: I want a bipod that deploys fast and is lightweight. For the way I like to shoot, the Grip-Pod works great.

  15. #30
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    Sights:Centurion C4 Diopter sights
    Reason: Always at the ready and nothing to fail.

    Optic: Aimpoint CompM4s
    Reason: Proven reliability and good QC. Battery is prevelant. 2moa dot is versatile.

    Grip: Magpul MOE
    Reason: Simple design, improved control, and offers some utility. A matter of personal preference really.

    Stock: Magpul UBR
    Reason: Solid stock feel and cheek weld with an adjustable length of pull. The construction lends it to be a durable piece of kit when locked in any position.

    Barrel including length:Noveske 14.5 Afghan, midlength gas sysem
    Reason: The 1:7 twist operates well with various bullet weights. The gas system operates closer to rifle length thresholds, which the rifle was originally designed for. Not to mention trusted reputation of accuracy and reliability.

    LPK/Trigger: JP Tactical Fire Control System
    Reason: Precision without compromising reliability

    BCG: JP T.O.S., Tactical Operating System, with Leitner-Wise Defense high performance bolt and extractor
    Reason: Constructed of hand polished 416 stainless steel, with no chrome to peel. The bolt is constructed of SAE 9310 steel rather than the mil-spec 8620 which dramatically increases the life expectancy. I've had impeccable performance thus far with mine.

    Upper Rec: LMT MRP
    Reason: Constructed of one piece of aluminum for strength, reduced number of parts, and ease of maintenance. The monolithic rail provides a stable platform for an optic mounted anywhere on the rail.

    Lower Rec: Stubborn Mule SM-15/Larue Stealth Lower, or T15BDX
    Reason: Both offer an integrated trigger guard...one less part to fail. In my experience the flared magwell helps with reloads and accepts even the most finicky Pmags. The T15's tension screw also aids in upper/lower mating consistency. Besides, Stick's been meaning to beat one up,this will give him a reason too.



    I don't rescind my previous post of the Cav. Arms MkII either. I think its has much to offer although it isn't a traditional receiver. The nylon 6 poly material is significantly lighter than aluminum receivers, it gives excellent corrosion resistance and a durable finish.

    Magazine: Pmag
    Reason: Its a PMAG...nough said

    Flash Hider/Comp: Quickcomp FSC556
    Reason: It has a little of all the trimmings...compensator, flash hider,and mounting options for a can
    -Mitch-

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