Could I Pick Your Brain?

[Whitten]

I am a relative newbie to the world of ARs I have been shooting them off and on now for 5 years and just last year got married...not to an AR but in the process of the "blessed" event I received a very generous gift from one of my groomsman that turned out to be a brand new DPMS AR-15 stripped lower in 5.56.
I have been slowly researching parts and buying little things while saving for an upper. I had originally planned to build it completely from the ground up but after being directed to POF-USA's website I fell in love with their uppers.

Now for the question part:
I have been patiently researching my upper decision and in my quest I have not found much information about POF here or even over at ar-15.
What is the general feeling about POF, and is no news a good thing in the world of the black rifle?

I realize that I can't ask a question without first giving some specifics about my purchases up until now and my intentions for the rifle so here goes.

To date I have:
3-30 round mags ranging from USGI to HK Maritime. The USGI have Magpul followers.
DPMS stripped lower.
VLTOR Standard Modstock kit with buffer tube, spring ,and buffer.
Magpul MIAD grip
Waiting on a parts kit
Heavily considering a Timney drop in

My plans for the weapon:
I intend to reload with a friend and shoot on average of about 1200-2000 per year maybe more depending on how much I can get off of work.
I am building this weapon right the first time because I never want to have a doubt in my mind that it will keep myself or my family safe. I am a big believer of you get what you pay for. I am not currently set to do any kind of classes with the weapon but would very much like to consider some due to my love for learning new skills and becoming generally more well rounded.
Overall I want a gun that I can rely on with my life, but also something that I can get enjoyment out of.


These were the reason for why I choose the POF upper. I liked the idea of the gas piston, not because I don't want to clean my gun but because my experience has taught me that less heat=less wear= less wear= reliability.
That coupled with the fact that POF's quality seems to be stellar on their site.

So sorry for the long winded intro.
Cliffs: What is your take on POF?


Thanks in advance,

Michael

[Whitten]

Anyone?

[bigcoastie]

I guess my biggest thing is my rifles are all DI and I have had 0 problems with reliability, until I start having issues I'll probably just stick with whats working. I suspect a lot of shooters are in the same boat, if it isn't broke why fix it? The only thing for me that piston gives is less cleaning and I don't really mind cleaning either.

[Hozen]

I've never used any of their stuff. I tend to think the DI system works well and has less parts. The trade off is its hot and dirty too. If you can get the piston system for the same price as a DI system (or a reasonable amount more), then go for it. Piston uppers tend to be extremely more expensive (in my experience) than regular standard DI uppers. I've actually not heard anything bad about POF and I'm on ar15.com a lot. In this case, I'd assume no news is good news. There aren't a lot of piston uppers out there. Here is my pro/con list for piston uppers.

Pros
Cleaner chamber
Cooler chamber temps

Cons
More parts
non standard means you limit your hanguard and rail selection
non standard BCG
Expensive

For me, you'd have to weigh the pros/cons and see if the trade off is worth it. Also consider that piston uppers are the "in thing" right now. That doesn't mean it'll be the in thing in 10 years. I know the standard DI system for the AR will be around as long as AR's are made. If you do a lot of shooting between cleaning, I think the piston system is a good call. In those cases, I'd assume you'd have less chance of having a failure to go into battery due to powder residue. On the other side, more parts means the piston system has more points of failure by nature.

If you're like me, you aren't in the military or in law enforcement and, therefore, use your AR's for hunting or fun or both. A DI upper will serve you well for both hunting and fun unless your fun includes shooting 5000 rounds without cleaning or lubing your firearm.

Last, I'll offer this up. While I don't want to sound like I'm anti-piston (I actually think some of the systems are quite good), there are reasons the United States armed forces still use the standard DI system. It works. If you want to spend the extra coin, do so. You won't be disappointed. However, if you think the extra money might be better served going for something else, then do the something else.

[Whitten]

To be honest I would rather not spend the extra money. I have to be honest with myself and also think that I would never be in a position where I would need to shoot 5000 rounds.

All in all I want this gun for the same reasons that almost everyone else wants one for and that is the SHTF situation.

I really do appreciate your input and that being said you made a very valid point about the military not making the system standard for any of their M varients.

I am heavily taking ya'lls suggestions under advisement because not spending $1100 dollars on the upper makes it possible for me to get this gun together and start shooting it sooner. Also I think the wife would kill me if I told her I just bought an 1100 dollar part.

So LMT, Stag, and YH are a couple I have been looking at. I can't make my mind up on a rail system so I will more than likely just start out with a standard m4 handguard and do a little more research all the while I can shoot it and that will help me make a decision.

Any other advise you fine gentleman might have is greatly appreciated. Also if you have any suggestions on classes that I could look into around the Atlanta area feel free to shout it out.

[bigcoastie]

Can't go wrong with LMT, take a look at BCM http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-...Groups-s/1.htm and if you do decide on a set of handguards you can talk to places like mstn.biz and they can set you up with custom builds.

[Stickman]

To be honest I would rather not spend the extra money. I have to be honest with myself and also think that I would never be in a position where I would need to shoot 5000 rounds.

All in all I want this gun for the same reasons that almost everyone else wants one for and that is the SHTF situation.

I really do appreciate your input and that being said you made a very valid point about the military not making the system standard for any of their M varients.

I am heavily taking ya'lls suggestions under advisement because not spending $1100 dollars on the upper makes it possible for me to get this gun together and start shooting it sooner. Also I think the wife would kill me if I told her I just bought an 1100 dollar part.

So LMT, Stag, and YH are a couple I have been looking at. I can't make my mind up on a rail system so I will more than likely just start out with a standard m4 handguard and do a little more research all the while I can

I have a POF carbine, and its been used hard. The weapon runs great, and I often use it or take it with me when I teach courses.

That being said, I have no complaints about a DI AR15, and its what I carry as my duty weapon.

Of the choices you have listed above, the LMT is an outstanding choice for a very well built weapon. I would carry a LMT without hesitation. If you are open to other choices, there are others out that which work nicely as well.

I like your idea of going with a basic carbine first, and adding to it later on. I think that is a solid choice.

[Eric]

The Noveske vs LWRC thread, while somewhat different, is similar enough that you may wish to take a look. Recently I've had several inquires about guys wanting piston guns over DI guns, based on allegations of DI function issues. When in fact, the existing DI system is a reliable proven design. POF has put out a nice piston system that has a lot going for it, but my canned answer for the first time buyer is to go DI.

[TehLlama]

I'm trying to find the full post from Steve at ADCO, but he listed a great explanation of what part of the DI system functions as the piston (yes, the impingement system is actually a gas piston assembly, which is why gas rings on the bolt are important).

The only case where 'need' for a piston system would be for suppressed SBR stuff with high round counts, or any of the previous caveats with exceptionally long strings of fire between thorough cleaning (usually extended military field operations).
For 98% of civilian use, DI works, the the money is better spent on practice ammunition and more magazines.

[JustMatt]

As a LWRC owner I would like to throw there rifle into Whitten's options if he's gonna go piston. I like there system better than the POF's and if it's any proof LMT and HK have similar piston systems as well as the retro fit kits that follow the same idea, meaning they use a piston cup and spring type set up. POF rely's on the bolt pushing the op rod forward if I remember correctly. But like Chief and TehLlama said, first time AR buyers should prob go with the DI system. I love my LWRC but my next AR is prob gonna be a DI gun, if for any other reason than the availability of parts! Although the Adams Arms piston kit and one piece bolt carrier will prob make it's way onto it at a later date. They are local to me and seem to be a good group of guys, not to mention there products seem to be top notch.

[bigcoastie]

Just what type of accuracy are you getting out of your LWRC?

[JustMatt]

All I have at the moment is a Aimpoint M4s and all my shooting is done on a indoor range with a 50 yd max. I'm getting 2" groups from all types of ammo, PRVI, Hornady and Federal, 60grn-75grn. With a magnified optic and some more skill on my part I would bet it would shoot 2 MOA or better.[IMG][/IMG]

[Army Chief]

For 98% of civilian use, DI works ...

Actually, given the history of the past 40 years, it's probably worth observing that for 98% of military use, DI works, as well.

There are actually very, very few piston guns in government stocks, and none in the conventional force to the best of my knowledge. If you take away the magazine-induced failures associated with the trials that led to the Army's half-hearted push for the HK 416, you find that the DI guns actually acquitted themselves quite well.

I'm not saying the piston doesn't have the potential to emerge as the better mousetrap, but we seem to spend a lot of time making somewhat invalid observations about the DI's shortcomings (which might more accurately be referred to as technical/design limitations). I just find it odd that the DI's "faults" rarely seem to be a significant issue until someone is trying to sell something (i.e. win a lucrative contract).

Personally, I'd rather see a 6.8mm DI upper fed from a PMAG than a mass-retrofielding of 5.56mm piston uppers using the same feeding devices we already have.

AC

[Whitten]

This is a great read, and I have to admit I am very much open to options. I have to say that when I here a Stick say that he would basicly trust his life with an LMT with no hesitation that speaks volumes. I am open to ideas and trust me when I say that every single post that ya'll have made is being taken serious and researched. Everyone has systems that they prefer or suggest over another just because they are familiar with it or have been very satisfied with the performance.

My next step here is to provide more information to better help hone your idea of what market I am in.

I am willing to spend $1300 on a complete upper. I would prefer not to but honestly like I mentioned above I am 100% a believer of "you get what you pay for"

My best bud mentioned last night that going ahead with a free float rail might be a good idea in the interest of saving some money and while the rail system is the least of my worries I did open up when he mentioned that most free floats require a gunsmith and therefor added cost.



Thanks for all the help guys, this thread has been extremely informative.

[Stickman]

For an out of the box AR15, you can buy a LMT complete lower, then save up, and buy a complete upper, and be into a very solid weapon platform at a good price.

If you are looking to upgrade that basic platform, the Noveske N4 would be my choice, and yes, the price goes up.

If you are looking for a weapon which is built with upgrades already done, the new Daniel Defense M4 is worth a hard look. I have been using a complete DD upper on my duty weapon for a few years, and have been very impressed.

The caveat to the DD M4 is that I have NOT had a chance to test out the weapon platform as of right now. I am waiting, and as soon as I get one, there will be a review similar to the Noveske N4 review, but I can't do that based off handling preproduction versions, and living with a DD upper for several years. Everything points to this being a great package, and I make no secret about my incredible satisfaction with my DD upper. I hope to see the complete weapon be every bit as good.