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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    You're carrying FMJ ammo on and off duty? Why not use one of the FBI tested and approved 147gr loads? They have no issues with barriers. If you're not ready to trust the new Gold Dot G2, the bonded Ranger works great. Only way I'd consider FMJ is for 38/380 or for bear protection in the woods. Way too much liability to use it for defensive purposes in my book.
    I carry hst at work, its issued and I have no say.

    As for off duty i carry 147gr flatnose.

    Ive seen first hand what hst does to people and what it does to vehicles and barriers.

    If anyone thinks hollow points are just as good as their fmj counterparts on car doors and the like, they are fooling themselves.

    Conversely, the difference between fmj and hollow points are very minimal, almost negligible when applied to people.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I carry hst at work, its issued and I have no say.

    As for off duty i carry 147gr flatnose.

    Ive seen first hand what hst does to people and what it does to vehicles and barriers.

    If anyone thinks hollow points are just as good as their fmj counterparts on car doors and the like, they are fooling themselves.

    Conversely, the difference between fmj and hollow points are very minimal, almost negligible when applied to people.
    If FMJ worked the same or similar to JHP everyone would use FMJ since it's less expensive. None of the ammunition on Doc's list is FMJ. I don't believe any of the ammo that has passed FBI protocols is FMJ. The troops overseas who complain about the 9mm being less effective than they want are routinely told it's because they are limited to FMJ.

    I can't find the story online but I recall reading many years ago that Philly PD had to lose an officer to convince them non-expanding ammo is a liability. As I remember it, 2 officers respond to a burglary call. One stays out front and one goes to check the back. Bad guy comes out the front and points a gun at that officer who does what he is supposed to and center punches the bad guy with whatever ammo they used then. Works perfectly and the bad guy dies. Unfortunately running toward them and out of view directly behind the bad guy was the other officer. The rounds that killed the bad guy kept going and killed the first officer's partner.

    Either way none of the research I've seen in the last 15 years or more supports carrying FMJ as equal to or better than JHP that is bonded or solid copper. If you have some I'd love to see it. Hell even Defoor candy canes his mags last time I trained with him. Every other round is FMJ and JHP.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    If FMJ worked the same or similar to JHP everyone would use FMJ since it's less expensive. None of the ammunition on Doc's list is FMJ. I don't believe any of the ammo that has passed FBI protocols is FMJ. The troops overseas who complain about the 9mm being less effective than they want are routinely told it's because they are limited to FMJ.

    I can't find the story online but I recall reading many years ago that Philly PD had to lose an officer to convince them non-expanding ammo is a liability. As I remember it, 2 officers respond to a burglary call. One stays out front and one goes to check the back. Bad guy comes out the front and points a gun at that officer who does what he is supposed to and center punches the bad guy with whatever ammo they used then. Works perfectly and the bad guy dies. Unfortunately running toward them and out of view directly behind the bad guy was the other officer. The rounds that killed the bad guy kept going and killed the first officer's partner.

    Either way none of the research I've seen in the last 15 years or more supports carrying FMJ as equal to or better than JHP that is bonded or solid copper. If you have some I'd love to see it. Hell even Defoor candy canes his mags last time I trained with him. Every other round is FMJ and JHP.
    I have nothing but respect for Doc's list and his knowledge in this field of study, though, what I have to say is based on personal experience and the experience of those who do work elsewhere.

    I have personally seen hollowpoint ammo fragment and fail to neutralize persons inside a vehicle and outside of a vehicle (shooting through windshields and doors. Guys who work elsewhere have told me that they have seen very similar issues when they have to shoot people in or around vehicles and structures. I have yet to see FMJ's fail against vehicles or structures in the same manner.

    Is there some sort of data available on 9mm through metal? Windshields? Doors? I have not found anything scientific so I assume there is not anything out there other than personal experiences.

    The issue people are afraid of is over penetration, they are afraid they are going to shoot someone and the bullet will go through them and hit/kill someone else. Yes this is a very serious issue, one which has created an entire scientific field of study and industry. The fact remains that FMJ ammo pokes nearly the same size holes in people and functions better against barriers that hollowpoints.

    I was training with Defoor and a few other guys, a few weeks ago, the consensus was that you should have more FMJ in your mag than hollowpoints because the likelihood of you fighting in or around vehicles and structures is so high that you need to be able to penetrate barriers.

    I googled and could not find the PPD shooting you referred to, but if it was a long time ago, (like before they had glocks) they were using .357 revolvers and they didn't wear vests, different era.

    edit; just to add - 9mm, as most pistol caliber ammunition, is ineffective at instantly incapacitating a human being. Targeting/accuracy is the single most important factor in a shooting, not the ammo, not the gun, not the sights. Understanding that should instantly make it clear that the most direct route to that end is the most important.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I have nothing but respect for Doc's list and his knowledge in this field of study, though, what I have to say is based on personal experience and the experience of those who do work elsewhere.

    I have personally seen hollowpoint ammo fragment and fail to neutralize persons inside a vehicle and outside of a vehicle (shooting through windshields and doors. Guys who work elsewhere have told me that they have seen very similar issues when they have to shoot people in or around vehicles and structures. I have yet to see FMJ's fail against vehicles or structures in the same manner.

    Is there some sort of data available on 9mm through metal? Windshields? Doors? I have not found anything scientific so I assume there is not anything out there other than personal experiences.

    The issue people are afraid of is over penetration, they are afraid they are going to shoot someone and the bullet will go through them and hit/kill someone else. Yes this is a very serious issue, one which has created an entire scientific field of study and industry. The fact remains that FMJ ammo pokes nearly the same size holes in people and functions better against barriers that hollowpoints.

    I was training with Defoor and a few other guys, a few weeks ago, the consensus was that you should have more FMJ in your mag than hollowpoints because the likelihood of you fighting in or around vehicles and structures is so high that you need to be able to penetrate barriers.

    I googled and could not find the PPD shooting you referred to, but if it was a long time ago, (like before they had glocks) they were using .357 revolvers and they didn't wear vests, different era.

    edit; just to add - 9mm, as most pistol caliber ammunition, is ineffective at instantly incapacitating a human being. Targeting/accuracy is the single most important factor in a shooting, not the ammo, not the gun, not the sights. Understanding that should instantly make it clear that the most direct route to that end is the most important.
    Good post

  5. #20
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    There's a reason you'll be hard pressed to find an agency that issues ball ammo for duty use. Overpenitration is a reality and terminal performance with ball ammo suffers. All handgun rounds are anemic, but it's what we're stuck with for the sake of portability and shot placement trumps all.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I have nothing but respect for Doc's list and his knowledge in this field of study, though, what I have to say is based on personal experience and the experience of those who do work elsewhere.

    I have personally seen hollowpoint ammo fragment and fail to neutralize persons inside a vehicle and outside of a vehicle (shooting through windshields and doors. Guys who work elsewhere have told me that they have seen very similar issues when they have to shoot people in or around vehicles and structures. I have yet to see FMJ's fail against vehicles or structures in the same manner.

    Is there some sort of data available on 9mm through metal? Windshields? Doors? I have not found anything scientific so I assume there is not anything out there other than personal experiences.

    The issue people are afraid of is over penetration, they are afraid they are going to shoot someone and the bullet will go through them and hit/kill someone else. Yes this is a very serious issue, one which has created an entire scientific field of study and industry. The fact remains that FMJ ammo pokes nearly the same size holes in people and functions better against barriers that hollowpoints.

    I was training with Defoor and a few other guys, a few weeks ago, the consensus was that you should have more FMJ in your mag than hollowpoints because the likelihood of you fighting in or around vehicles and structures is so high that you need to be able to penetrate barriers.

    I googled and could not find the PPD shooting you referred to, but if it was a long time ago, (like before they had glocks) they were using .357 revolvers and they didn't wear vests, different era.
    OK, here's one for you.... since I am not a cop odds are having me try to get someone out of a car or whatever is pretty slim. Officers often have to sort of be on the 'offensive' when it comes to situations is my main point. So basically what are your opinions about straight up civilians like myself who are carrying for self defense purposes?

    What about carrying HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ... in the mag? (assuming it all runs right)

    In a way my whole theory for the most part is that barring if someone is trying to pull a gun on me from inside a car (IE a drive by) then odds are my main goals are to get away. Standing there gun battling someone huddled behind a car seems to me to be more the job of cops not concealed carry holders. My theory I guess is, that if I can get away I should. That is barring some 'active shooter' scenario when going after the guy is the only way to survive. For the most part for civilians like me, would carrying FMJ or something like that be worth it or needed considering that most threats probably won't involve some barrier or whatnot?

    I could be totally wrong, but that is why I am asking opinions.

    Yes if I was a cop and rolled up on some suicidal maniac in a car with a hostage, I might need to shoot his ass through the door or window... but your average CHL Joe doesn't do all that.

    Opinions? ... think it over and share.

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    edit; just to add - 9mm, as most pistol caliber ammunition, is ineffective at instantly incapacitating a human being. Targeting/accuracy is the single most important factor in a shooting, not the ammo, not the gun, not the sights. Understanding that should instantly make it clear that the most direct route to that end is the most important.
    This is my theory as well. One good shot to the cranium will stop a robbery in progress. Although I've never been shot and hope it never happens, but barring some PCP'ed out freak, a bullet hole changes attitudes. Basically though I am right there with you. Accurate shots on target are the way to go, that is assuming you aren't being jumped out behind the 7-11 where just drawing and shooting wild west style is the only option. But say for example if there was an active shooter in a mall and you had the opportunity to draw down...all those things are definite possibilities.

    I have never been in a gun fight but I imagine keeping your head about you is way more important than almost anything.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    OK, here's one for you.... since I am not a cop odds are having me try to get someone out of a car or whatever is pretty slim. Officers often have to sort of be on the 'offensive' when it comes to situations is my main point. So basically what are your opinions about straight up civilians like myself who are carrying for self defense purposes?

    What about carrying HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ... in the mag? (assuming it all runs right)

    In a way my whole theory for the most part is that barring if someone is trying to pull a gun on me from inside a car (IE a drive by) then odds are my main goals are to get away. Standing there gun battling someone huddled behind a car seems to me to be more the job of cops not concealed carry holders. My theory I guess is, that if I can get away I should. That is barring some 'active shooter' scenario when going after the guy is the only way to survive. For the most part for civilians like me, would carrying FMJ or something like that be worth it or needed considering that most threats probably won't involve some barrier or whatnot?

    I could be totally wrong, but that is why I am asking opinions.

    Yes if I was a cop and rolled up on some suicidal maniac in a car with a hostage, I might need to shoot his ass through the door or window... but your average CHL Joe doesn't do all that.

    Opinions? ... think it over and share.



    This is my theory as well. One good shot to the cranium will stop a robbery in progress. Although I've never been shot and hope it never happens, but barring some PCP'ed out freak, a bullet hole changes attitudes. Basically though I am right there with you. Accurate shots on target are the way to go, that is assuming you aren't being jumped out behind the 7-11 where just drawing and shooting wild west style is the only option. But say for example if there was an active shooter in a mall and you had the opportunity to draw down...all those things are definite possibilities.

    I have never been in a gun fight but I imagine keeping your head about you is way more important than almost anything.
    Without getting into the super fine details, I suggest that you play the "what if" game that a lot of officer's play (and rookies are encouraged to play) so that you know what you are going to do in a bad situation. With that in mind, understand that whatever plans you make will blow up instantly when bullets start flying, this is 100% and you will default to whatever training you have. Again without getting in to the details, as we are talking about firearms - ammo specifically, that is a different conversation altogether. The only tidbit I will add is that you need to be prepared for any and every situation that comes your way (to the best of your ability). I carry a rifle and a pistol because I know my pistol is my key to opening the door to my rifle if the situation gets bad enough. Can I do good work with a pistol? Yes. Can I make a 50y headshot at a dude inside a vehicle? More than likely, yes, would I try? If I have to and should I be equipped for suck a situation? Yes, we all should.

    The average CCW citizen drives a car to work and around town, they are inside structures and around structures most of time (if not always). Designing a carry setup that fits their specific circumstance is the best way to go about it. My suggestion is always to figure out what works for you, in your specific situation.

    When I carry my G19, I carry 12 FMJ and 3 (after the first 3 FMJ rounds) hollow points (1 hst 147gr, 1 cor-bon 95gr, 1 liberty defense 50gr) - these specific loads because I know what HST does, I have not personally seen cor-bon's 95gr or liberty defense 50gr loads in action so I want to see what happens. The rest are 147gr flatnose federal ammo (I buy a case of 1000, I shoot a random sample of 100 from various boxes and then carry the rest out of those same boxes.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post

    When I carry my G19, I carry 12 FMJ and 3 (after the first 3 FMJ rounds) hollow points (1 hst 147gr, 1 cor-bon 95gr, 1 liberty defense 50gr) - these specific loads because I know what HST does, I have not personally seen cor-bon's 95gr or liberty defense 50gr loads in action so I want to see what happens. The rest are 147gr flatnose federal ammo (I buy a case of 1000, I shoot a random sample of 100 from various boxes and then carry the rest out of those same boxes.
    That may work at close range but at 25 yards those bullets will have significantly different POI's. Heck, I've seen 147's go 5-10 inches above a bullseye when 115's hit the 10 ring. If you have to take a precise shot and have a gun zeroed for 147, the 95 and 50gr bullets will be hitting significantly lower - and under stress you'll have no idea when those rounds are chambered.

    If a shooter wants to candy cane pistol mags I'd strongly recommend using HP's and FMJ of the same weight.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    That may work at close range but at 25 yards those bullets will have significantly different POI's. Heck, I've seen 147's go 5-10 inches above a bullseye when 115's hit the 10 ring. If you have to take a precise shot and have a gun zeroed for 147, the 95 and 50gr bullets will be hitting significantly lower - and under stress you'll have no idea when those rounds are chambered.

    If a shooter wants to candy cane pistol mags I'd strongly recommend using HP's and FMJ of the same weight.
    I hear people saying this, but I've never had an issue with this. Honestly, I've loaded a 10rnd mag full of 90gr 115, 124, 147 and 158 and they went around the same 4inch area I expected.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    I hear people saying this, but I've never had an issue with this. Honestly, I've loaded a 10rnd mag full of 90gr 115, 124, 147 and 158 and they went around the same 4inch area I expected.
    At 25 yards or more? You must have a magic pistol.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    At 25 yards or more? You must have a magic pistol.
    Or I can just shoot in a static environment...?

    The only serious deviation I have ever seen was with my PWS MK107 from 55gr IMI to 62gr SS109 to 77gr OTM to 64gr speer gold dot - they were all over the place and not even remotely close to what I expected (the speer shot consistently 10inches higher than the 77otm which put a 3inch group at 100y).

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    Or I can just shoot in a static environment...?

    The only serious deviation I have ever seen was with my PWS MK107 from 55gr IMI to 62gr SS109 to 77gr OTM to 64gr speer gold dot - they were all over the place and not even remotely close to what I expected (the speer shot consistently 10inches higher than the 77otm which put a 3inch group at 100y).
    Lol! Got me. You're one of the few I know on these forums who actually tests and trains so I want to believe. It just doesn't match up with what I've seen.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    Lol! Got me. You're one of the few I know on these forums who actually tests and trains so I want to believe. It just doesn't match up with what I've seen.
    There are more out there, they just don't post as much as I do as they don't want to spend the time needed to type things out when they could be training, luckily for me I know how to do two things at once

    I may try to do something on video on this when it gets warmer and time permits me to. I've read a lot of BS online and when it comes to actually doing it in real life "on the streets, yo" it seems to usually not match up with internet dogma.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    There are more out there, they just don't post as much as I do as they don't want to spend the time needed to type things out when they could be training, luckily for me I know how to do two things at once

    I may try to do something on video on this when it gets warmer and time permits me to. I've read a lot of BS online and when it comes to actually doing it in real life "on the streets, yo" it seems to usually not match up with internet dogma.
    I hear you. The most eye opening and valuable class I've taken was Pannone's Vehicle/TCCC. Makes me want to win the lottery just so I can shoot vehicles with every available caliber/type of ammo.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by El Cid View Post
    I hear you. The most eye opening and valuable class I've taken was Pannone's Vehicle/TCCC. Makes me want to win the lottery just so I can shoot vehicles with every available caliber/type of ammo.
    The first time I saw bullets do stupid things, like physics-defying shit, when hitting a vehicle I had a light-bulb. It really is amazing.

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