Handgun Self Defense Ammo

[alamo5000]

I would like to hear the various opinions of forum members about ammo for self defense carry in various calibers.

Without so much getting into what kind of gun it is or what kind of specific weapon related discussion, but I am talking about rounds and generally what your impressions are.

For me, I have a Sig P238 .380 that I have always wanted to carry mainly because it seems to be small and simple. That said I have honestly never carried it for a variety of reasons.

My main thoughts on .380 are that people bash it for being under power. That said for being in the deep south where winter means it gets down to the 50's a .380 might be ok for convenience, but it's not optimal.

I tried several types of ammo and I found that Black Hills 90 grain JHP works pretty well. That's not based around some gel test but rather that seems like I can load mags of the stuff and never have a problem. That being said, with buffalo bore, corbon, and a few others they don't cycle as well.

That said with regular ball ammo I have never had a single problem with my .380 but when you get into other stuff my gun seems more picky on ammo. With +P ammo it seems like it was blasting too hard to the point where it was changing the cycling rate and hence it wasn't extracting the spent shells like it should sometimes.

Some of those cycling issues are pretty much why I haven't carried the .380. That said with the black hills standard non +P it has been great and opens that gun up to be able to be carried. It's either that or carry ball ammo. All in all though I think a .380 can do the trick if needed.



With 9mm I carry 124 gr. Personally I think with many kinds of ammo it's a voodoo science. Most of it is marketing. Personally I see no reason to run a +P round. Up to a point I am not so sure why people obsess over penetration tests.

The main reason I like 9mm is I think it's more than sufficient. For me the carry package is relatively small and light. The recoil is less. You can have more rounds (if needed) with less weight.



With .40 I tend to go with 180 grain. In recent years I have shied away from .40 mainly because the carry package is slightly larger and there seems to be more recoil. That said I would have 100% confidence in it. If you connect with the target that's pretty much all she wrote.



I have carried a .45 before on numerous occasions but that said the only real reason why I don't is because the overall package of carrying is much bigger and slightly less 'easy' to conceal with what I have. I do carry my .45 in the car though.

It has nothing to do with the round itself. I actually like it a whole lot. I tend to prefer 230 grain JHP.



All that said my impressions on ammo is just what I said earlier. There is entirely too many people making tens of thousands of youtube videos (although they are fun to watch). For me +P doesn't really bring anything extra to a real world scenario. I think the best selection method is to pick stuff that has a good projectile for your needs and that will cycle well in your weapon. At the end of the day what really will save your ass in some kind of bad situation will be your ability to react and keep your head. My opinion is if you start poking holes in a bad guy his attitude is going to change.

All that said I have long been a fan of Black Hills for all my carry needs. Whatever gun I run them in they just seem to be smooth and overall very good ammo.

[DutyUse]

.380 in our g42 I load hardball or Lehigh extreme penetrator.

9mm in our g43 I use federal hst 147gr +P.

[Eric]

I've had the opportunity to participate in a few ballistic workshops and come to the opinion that current premium handgun duty rounds are very similar in terminal performance. FWIW my agency elected to go with the CCI Gold Dot across the board: 147 gr 9mm, 180 gr .40, 230 gr .45. Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber and Winchester Ranger are among some good choices as well. Buy a bunch of your preferred ammo and confirm proper function in the specific pistol.

[Former11B]

I use Speer Gold Dot ammo in all the carry guns: .380 (wife's gun)...I believe it's 95gr JHP. In 9mm, 124gr +P (I would have bought it with or without the +P), 185gr JHP in .357 Mag, and 210gr JHP in .45 ACP. Although my 1911 5" is hell on them in regards to setting back a bullet in the case....I don't like carrying FMJs as self defense ammo so the 1911 doesn't get carried much because I don't trust it to feed the hollow points reliably. I do carry a Springfield XD .45 compact occasionally but it's usually a G19 with 124gr Gold Dots

[DeviantLogic]

My P238 gets the most carry time. It gets run of the mill Winchester 95gr. Although I carry one of my M&P's when I can, the P238 is easiest to conceal. It easily fits in my back pocket with jeans/slacks or front pocket with cargo shorts. I use the Winchester 95gr because that's what it gets at the range and the P238 hasn't had any problems with it. Having good terminal performance is great, reliability and getting shots on target are my first priorities.

[BoilerUp]

Winchester Ranger-T +P 124 gr is my top choice for 9mm with Gold Dot as a close second. The Ranger-T ammo can at times be hard to find.

[MoxyDave]

Nice write-up. I like .380 for the reasons you mentioned. I only use bonded bullets, which I think is especially important for a weaker round like the .380.

Also just FYI, there is no "+P" SAMMI specification as far as I know in .380 ACP. With no standard, manufacturers have no means to test a "+P" .380 round, so your mileage may vary ... I prefer to stick with standards.

[alamo5000]

Also just FYI, there is no "+P" SAMMI specification as far as I know in .380 ACP. With no standard, manufacturers have no means to test a "+P" .380 round

I've tried a couple of variations of that stuff. It works but I experienced problems like I mentioned above with it. I will go try again and see if maybe it was a fluke.

But yes, I am with you... I don't get the need to go +P for the most part.

[voodoo_man]

While I am issued 9mm HST at work, I have started carrying 147gr flatnose (federal or winchester, whichever I can find).

HST and other hollowpoint ammo does not do well with barricades (cars, house doors) - 147gr does really well, the wound channel is negligible.

[El Cid]

While I am issued 9mm HST at work, I have started carrying 147gr flatnose (federal or winchester, whichever I can find).

HST and other hollowpoint ammo does not do well with barricades (cars, house doors) - 147gr does really well, the wound channel is negligible.

You're carrying FMJ ammo on and off duty? Why not use one of the FBI tested and approved 147gr loads? They have no issues with barriers. If you're not ready to trust the new Gold Dot G2, the bonded Ranger works great. Only way I'd consider FMJ is for 38/380 or for bear protection in the woods. Way too much liability to use it for defensive purposes in my book.

[dgod]

I carry a .45, G2RIP, Snag Mag, so 2 Mags Full. Backup is a Sig P220, 9MM with Alternating G2Rip and Hornady SD HP's

Never had to use it, but if I do, I'm satisfied it will get whatever is necessary accomplished.

Great Thread...

[voodoo_man]

You're carrying FMJ ammo on and off duty? Why not use one of the FBI tested and approved 147gr loads? They have no issues with barriers. If you're not ready to trust the new Gold Dot G2, the bonded Ranger works great. Only way I'd consider FMJ is for 38/380 or for bear protection in the woods. Way too much liability to use it for defensive purposes in my book.

I carry hst at work, its issued and I have no say.

As for off duty i carry 147gr flatnose.

Ive seen first hand what hst does to people and what it does to vehicles and barriers.

If anyone thinks hollow points are just as good as their fmj counterparts on car doors and the like, they are fooling themselves.

Conversely, the difference between fmj and hollow points are very minimal, almost negligible when applied to people.

[El Cid]

I carry hst at work, its issued and I have no say.

As for off duty i carry 147gr flatnose.

Ive seen first hand what hst does to people and what it does to vehicles and barriers.

If anyone thinks hollow points are just as good as their fmj counterparts on car doors and the like, they are fooling themselves.

Conversely, the difference between fmj and hollow points are very minimal, almost negligible when applied to people.

If FMJ worked the same or similar to JHP everyone would use FMJ since it's less expensive. None of the ammunition on Doc's list is FMJ. I don't believe any of the ammo that has passed FBI protocols is FMJ. The troops overseas who complain about the 9mm being less effective than they want are routinely told it's because they are limited to FMJ.

I can't find the story online but I recall reading many years ago that Philly PD had to lose an officer to convince them non-expanding ammo is a liability. As I remember it, 2 officers respond to a burglary call. One stays out front and one goes to check the back. Bad guy comes out the front and points a gun at that officer who does what he is supposed to and center punches the bad guy with whatever ammo they used then. Works perfectly and the bad guy dies. Unfortunately running toward them and out of view directly behind the bad guy was the other officer. The rounds that killed the bad guy kept going and killed the first officer's partner.

Either way none of the research I've seen in the last 15 years or more supports carrying FMJ as equal to or better than JHP that is bonded or solid copper. If you have some I'd love to see it. Hell even Defoor candy canes his mags last time I trained with him. Every other round is FMJ and JHP.

[voodoo_man]

If FMJ worked the same or similar to JHP everyone would use FMJ since it's less expensive. None of the ammunition on Doc's list is FMJ. I don't believe any of the ammo that has passed FBI protocols is FMJ. The troops overseas who complain about the 9mm being less effective than they want are routinely told it's because they are limited to FMJ.

I can't find the story online but I recall reading many years ago that Philly PD had to lose an officer to convince them non-expanding ammo is a liability. As I remember it, 2 officers respond to a burglary call. One stays out front and one goes to check the back. Bad guy comes out the front and points a gun at that officer who does what he is supposed to and center punches the bad guy with whatever ammo they used then. Works perfectly and the bad guy dies. Unfortunately running toward them and out of view directly behind the bad guy was the other officer. The rounds that killed the bad guy kept going and killed the first officer's partner.

Either way none of the research I've seen in the last 15 years or more supports carrying FMJ as equal to or better than JHP that is bonded or solid copper. If you have some I'd love to see it. Hell even Defoor candy canes his mags last time I trained with him. Every other round is FMJ and JHP.

I have nothing but respect for Doc's list and his knowledge in this field of study, though, what I have to say is based on personal experience and the experience of those who do work elsewhere.

I have personally seen hollowpoint ammo fragment and fail to neutralize persons inside a vehicle and outside of a vehicle (shooting through windshields and doors. Guys who work elsewhere have told me that they have seen very similar issues when they have to shoot people in or around vehicles and structures. I have yet to see FMJ's fail against vehicles or structures in the same manner.

Is there some sort of data available on 9mm through metal? Windshields? Doors? I have not found anything scientific so I assume there is not anything out there other than personal experiences.

The issue people are afraid of is over penetration, they are afraid they are going to shoot someone and the bullet will go through them and hit/kill someone else. Yes this is a very serious issue, one which has created an entire scientific field of study and industry. The fact remains that FMJ ammo pokes nearly the same size holes in people and functions better against barriers that hollowpoints.

I was training with Defoor and a few other guys, a few weeks ago, the consensus was that you should have more FMJ in your mag than hollowpoints because the likelihood of you fighting in or around vehicles and structures is so high that you need to be able to penetrate barriers.

I googled and could not find the PPD shooting you referred to, but if it was a long time ago, (like before they had glocks) they were using .357 revolvers and they didn't wear vests, different era.

edit; just to add - 9mm, as most pistol caliber ammunition, is ineffective at instantly incapacitating a human being. Targeting/accuracy is the single most important factor in a shooting, not the ammo, not the gun, not the sights. Understanding that should instantly make it clear that the most direct route to that end is the most important.

[MoxyDave]

Manufacturers can claim whatever they want. I'm pretty sure there is no +P SAAMI spec.

List of SAAMI Specs

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/why-...or-any-p-ammo/