EOTech refunds

[Calico Jack]

It's the same everywhere right? Patrol is the backbone of the department! But we can't afford to give you guys anything... but let's outfit the other teams with 1 call out a month NV and Thermal.

Same here. We can't even get lights for rifles or pistols. If you want it you have to buy it yourself. We are issued bare bones 6920's with night sights.

[UWone77]

Same here. We can't even get lights for rifles or pistols. If you want it you have to buy it yourself. We are issued bare bones 6920's with night sights.

Seems like a Department should at least provide white lights to guys work at night or low light conditions, which is everyone. Seems like a liability if you have a bad shoot in low light conditions and/or a no shoot because you couldn't ID your target and you ultimately paid the price.

[MonkeyBomb]

I had one of our training guys try to tell one of my guys that if he showed up to qualify with a light mounted to his rifle he would be calling me and having them written up.

I about lost my mind. I went to their Lt and they tried to defend it until I pointed out it is kind of nice to ID a target and the difficulty with using a hand held light. I won but dang how ignorant can you be. 2/3 of us work in the dark and the rest are in the dark occasionally.

[MonkeyBomb]

On Topic. I did get a response from Eotech and they gave me a phone number for a customer service rep just for the return process. They say refund checks are going out and mine was in the que but it would be a couple of weeks because they are cutting the checks and sending them out in blocks.

[fledge]

Check arrived today. Did electronic deposit. Waiting for approval email that it cleared. Should know in the morning.

[Eric]

Check arrived today. Did electronic deposit. Waiting for approval email that it cleared. Should know in the morning.

When did your returned optic arrive at EOTech?

[BoilerUp]

Well, so much for a lower price EOTech in the future. It appears that EOTech has already incorporated a few changes into their product to adress some of the issues (e.g., those pertaining to moisture and distortion of reticle at cold temperatures), but the core "thermal drift" problem has simply been disclosed on their website. So, if you buy a new one (at the same price point as before, btw), you have no recourse.

Form the "General Specifications" info on their website:

* EOTech users will often experience a point of impact shift away from the point of aim when the sight is used at a temperature different from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed. The point of aim shift may be greater the more extreme the temperature change. To achieve optimum accuracy, the sight should be re-zeroed whenever the temperature changes from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed.
* All EOTech sights exhibit a varying degree of parallax depending on operating conditions.

So, essentially, they will keep selling the product more-or-less as-is at the same price. Disappointing.

[Jerry R]

When did your returned optic arrive at EOTech?

I'm curious also. I shipped mine 12/22, delivered and signed for 12/28. I got the "Received Reviewed and Approved" email on 1/15.

[fledge]

Shipped 12/9 to EOTech
Refund is being processed email 1/15
Checked cleared 2/12

[Thompson]

So, here's an interesting story for ya.

Was at the Outdoor Show last weekend; while there had a chance to swing by the Rockwell Tactical Group booth. Was playing catch up with Jared (owner, also SF) and briefly mentioned this debacle to him.

He told me that all the times that he's done the cool guy stuff - he's never had a problem (at least not the ones regarding this debacle), or has any of his friends.

Granted to be fair (and in hindsight) - I did not ask him when he got his unit/date of manufacture.

Side note: Looks like Mako Group wants to get in on this.

From their FB post a couple days ago:

Did your EOTech optics fail you? Don't worry, Meprolight USA has a solution. For a limited time, get $250 towards an RDS PRO or $400 towards a Mepro MOR when you send us ANY used EOTech optic model! Visit www.themakogroup.com/eotechtradein for more info!

[voodoo_man]

Seems like a Department should at least provide white lights to guys work at night or low light conditions, which is everyone. Seems like a liability if you have a bad shoot in low light conditions and/or a no shoot because you couldn't ID your target and you ultimately paid the price.

LOL top brass doesn't care until it happens.

Then its your fault.

Because fuck you.

[gatordev]

So, here's an interesting story for ya.

Was at the Outdoor Show last weekend; while there had a chance to swing by the Rockwell Tactical Group booth. Was playing catch up with Jared (owner, also SF) and briefly mentioned this debacle to him.

He told me that all the times that he's done the cool guy stuff - he's never had a problem (at least not the ones regarding this debacle), or has any of his friends.

Keep in mind, SOCOM's note never said it would fail at a certain temperature point. What it said is that it didn't meet the contract requirements. There is a difference. During this whole brouhaha, I've always been amused how people are dropping their Eotechs because their zero shifted after a 50+ degree temp change. Like somehow Eotech is supposed to change the laws of physics. But I know that's not what this is about. This is about getting money for something you don't want anymore because it's not the new hotness.

[BoilerUp]

Keep in mind, SOCOM's note never said it would fail at a certain temperature point. What it said is that it didn't meet the contract requirements. There is a difference. During this whole brouhaha, I've always been amused how people are dropping their Eotechs because their zero shifted after a 50+ degree temp change. Like somehow Eotech is supposed to change the laws of physics. But I know that's not what this is about. This is about getting money for something you don't want anymore because it's not the new hotness.

I'm not sure to which laws of physics you are referring (ballistics or electro-optics?), but two things come to mind: 1) the only physics an end user of a weapon sight (think "18 year old private") should be required to understand is that gravity pulls bullets down, and 2) a product should do what its manufacturer states it does. In the case of EOTech, they said their HWS did something that it does not. Actually, two things: it is not parallax free and zero changes as result of temperature changes. To be clear, I haven't interpreted the "thermal drift" to be related to the effect of temperature on ballistics, but the fact that optic will actually "point" some place differently as a result of temperature swings.

Personally, I'm less concerned about the performance of the hardware than I am troubled by the behavior of L3 management.

[gatordev]

I'm not sure to which laws of physics you are referring (ballistics or electro-optics?), but two things come to mind: 1) the only physics an end user of a weapon sight (think "18 year old private") should be required to understand is that gravity pulls bullets down, and 2) a product should do what its manufacturer states it does. In the case of EOTech, they said their HWS did something that it does not. Actually, two things: it is not parallax free and zero changes as result of temperature changes. To be clear, I haven't interpreted the "thermal drift" to be related to the effect of temperature on ballistics, but the fact that optic will actually "point" some place differently as a result of temperature swings.

I'm not arguing that it's doing something different than you describe, but that it really doesn't matter to the end user. It DOES matter as far as the contract goes. If it's not completely parallax free, does that make it not a useful sight? I'd argue the small bit of parallax doesn't make it significantly inaccurate (and to be fair most parallax-free optics aren't truly parallax free). But what does matter, in this case, is that the requirement stated it to be parallax-free. Since it's apparently not, then there's a violation of contract and L3 takes them back.

As for zero drift, two things: 1) regardless of the age, experience, or rank of the end-user, he/she needs to rezero after extreme temp changes. 2) As for your interpretation that the "thermal drift" is related to the optic...that's what I was getting at. It might be optic-related, but if you read the SOCOM blurb, it's not entirely clear (at least to me). But again, even if the zero does drift at extreme temperature changes, the end-user needs to rezero it anyway if he hopes to hit anything at distance. Regardless, because the requirement was no change in zero with extreme temp change, the contract was violated and L3 takes them back.

At the end of the day, the SOCOM note doesn't actually say Eotechs are the worst thing since herpes, and I'm not trying to argue for or against Eotechs in general (I own two, and one isn't even installed. All my other serious RDS are Aimpoints). All I'm pointing out is that the SOCOM note is pointing out concerns because it's not meeting the requirements set forth, and .mil users need to be aware. The fact that L3 is taking returns from civilians (who are not bound by requirements or a contract) is an interesting choice. And as expected, lots of people who have perfectly working Eotechs are cashing them in because they can. I don't blame them, but it's interesting to watch.

[MonkeyBomb]

I couldn't disagree with you more. If I have a optic that I am told holds zero and it doesn't thats a problem. My carbine can sit in the trunk during summer and may well reach 120 to 140 degrees in the trunk. At night it can swing to the mid 50's.

Now if it is off by a few MOA's and I know it is a problem and I still use it it can be a big problem for me and my agency. Thats just in a day. I can't be expected to rezero every day,

No way in hell I am going to field it if there is that big a problem. Especially if there is an option that is just as good without the same problem.

Now why would I hold on to a liabilty when I can get my money back and reduce my liability.

I thought about keeping it for a plinking gun. But having a backup optic that is identical to the one I filed is pretty nice.

I think it is pretty decent of L-3 to buy them back without a fuss. After all when I bought mine it was under the pretense that their claims were correct and I wouldn't have to check my zero every day before I hit the streets nor keep it in a temperature controlled environment.

Anyone that buys one after this has no complaint.