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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    Why the 6.5 CM?

    Please note that I have been reading up A LOT on this subject lately... so I am poking you in your brain to see 'why' you want that.

    Based on my reading and comparing (at least on paper) you're just opening up a crazy money pit by trying to go the CM route and it won't offer that much if any better performance (for target applications). The 6.5 CM at 1400 yards... your DOPE will be about 51 MOA in elevation. With the .243 at that same range it will be 54 MOA. Yet you're telling me you want to spend about 2x to 3x the money on ammo just because the cool kids are all doing it?

    Out to a grand you know what the dial up difference is between a 6.5 and a .243 all other things being equal?

    It's 1/2 of an MOA. (using good match ammo)
    Prices ebb and flow. Also, not everyone is a reloader. For a while, commercial 6.5CM was about the same price as FGMM 175. It looks like CM has creeped up a bit from .308.

    More importantly, 6.5CM has some significant gains on .308 in performance. DOPE may be similar for distance, but 6.5CM is significantly better in wind. It requires less of a hold at distance, which can (but not always, of course) help with some of the error in guessing/reading the wind. CM also has a much wider/longer Point Blank Zero, which some can find useful. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but I think it's at least another 75 yards or so.

    .308 isn't a bad option, but there are solid reasons for the 6mm family.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Prices ebb and flow. Also, not everyone is a reloader. For a while, commercial 6.5CM was about the same price as FGMM 175. It looks like CM has creeped up a bit from .308.

    More importantly, 6.5CM has some significant gains on .308 in performance. DOPE may be similar for distance, but 6.5CM is significantly better in wind. It requires less of a hold at distance, which can (but not always, of course) help with some of the error in guessing/reading the wind. CM also has a much wider/longer Point Blank Zero, which some can find useful. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but I think it's at least another 75 yards or so.

    .308 isn't a bad option, but there are solid reasons for the 6mm family.
    I was comparing 6.5 CM to the .243, which is in the 6mm family. .308 has it's place IMO and I still want one but comparing two different rounds both from the 6mm family it's hard to justify (in my mind) the CM (extra ammo cost plus terrible barrel life) to the .243. I haven't gotten done reading up on everything yet, but my preliminary research tells me that 6mm bullets are the way to go for long range (yet affordable) shooting.

    I will run some more numbers and compare a 6mm to a 6.5 for wind and see what I can come up with... buying commercial ammo (not even taking into account reloading the cost to feed a .243 is a smidgin over half the price of 6.5 CM.

    The only difference is one is 6mm and the other is 6.5...

    According to this guy where he polls the top 100 tactical competition shooters out there... they are pretty evenly split between the 6mm and 6.5 bullet...a smidgin more than half of the top competitors chose the 6mm bullet over the 6.5...but almost all of them are in the 6mm family for that application.

    http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/1...rifle-caliber/

    Basically I don't think any average or even above average shooter would be able to out perform either one. Six of one, half dozen of the other pretty much.

    The question now becomes which case do you have wrapped around that bullet and why...

  3. #63
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    According to this guy where he polls the top 100 tactical competition shooters out there... they are pretty evenly split between the 6mm and 6.5 bullet...a smidgin more than half of the top competitors chose the 6mm bullet over the 6.5...but almost all of them are in the 6mm family for that application.
    That's what I meant when I said "6mm." I wasn't literally saying a 6mm bullet, but the whole family of .243, .260, .264, 6.5CM, 6.5x47, etc.

    Alamo, I know this goes back to another thread/discussion, but I'd really recommend you take a PR/Distance class from one of the nationally recognized schools. Grab a R700 of whatever flavor for cheap and put an optic on there and just go to the class. You'll see a lot of the questions you're asking answered, complete with lab work to prove it (based on what others bring to the class) and it will probably give you a much better foundation rather than relying on internet experts and their mumbo-jumbo.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Alamo, I know this goes back to another thread/discussion, but I'd really recommend you take a PR/Distance class from one of the nationally recognized schools. Grab a R700 of whatever flavor for cheap and put an optic on there and just go to the class. You'll see a lot of the questions you're asking answered, complete with lab work to prove it (based on what others bring to the class) and it will probably give you a much better foundation rather than relying on internet experts and their mumbo-jumbo.
    I'm all ears. Got a link to the kind of class you're talking about?

    I would most definitely love that for sure. I have never taken a formal shooting class (yet) but there are several subjects that I would enjoy taking classes about. That's no joke.

  5. #65
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    There's a bunch out there. Rifles Only is down in Corpus, so not the end of the world in your weirdo huge state. There's another place over in Crestview, FL that Ordnance freaks out about (and I've heard good things from others). I'm not sure of the name, but I think it's CORE. He may chime in with an answer.

    Personally, I went all in and did a Magpul SPR class that was right down your lane. But it was also an early class with the instructor, and I have a feeling at this point that his PR1 class is what you'd be looking for. Again, personally, I liked Caylen's style, but I've also grown up in the .mil "these are your standards...didn't meet them? You should probably suck less" type stuff. That said, he's very patient and not a dick. He was just more of a dick to me because I was shooting well and knew I could handle it. And I totally respect that...especially as an instructor...albeit not of guns. But his theory and explanation of ballistics et al were fantastic, and really clicked with me. To this day, I say my shooting ability increased, even with a RDS, because of what he instilled. Now I'm gushing...

    But I'm not trying to steer you to any one course. I'd do some Googling and find what works for you.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    There's a bunch out there. Rifles Only is down in Corpus, so not the end of the world in your weirdo huge state. There's another place over in Crestview, FL that Ordnance freaks out about (and I've heard good things from others). I'm not sure of the name, but I think it's CORE. He may chime in with an answer.

    Personally, I went all in and did a Magpul SPR class that was right down your lane. But it was also an early class with the instructor, and I have a feeling at this point that his PR1 class is what you'd be looking for. Again, personally, I liked Caylen's style, but I've also grown up in the .mil "these are your standards...didn't meet them? You should probably suck less" type stuff. That said, he's very patient and not a dick. He was just more of a dick to me because I was shooting well and knew I could handle it. And I totally respect that...especially as an instructor...albeit not of guns. But his theory and explanation of ballistics et al were fantastic, and really clicked with me. To this day, I say my shooting ability increased, even with a RDS, because of what he instilled. Now I'm gushing...

    But I'm not trying to steer you to any one course. I'd do some Googling and find what works for you.
    Thank you Gator... seriously. I will seriously consider it. I am slowly getting more and more into 'serious' shooting. I've always shot but I've just relatively recently gotten more into it to the point where I would consider a class. Like you said... there are a BUNCH to pick from and my finances are not what they should be...

    That said before I take and pay for ANY class I will run it by you guys for sure. I know NOTHING about classes and all that. But I do know there are plenty of fakes and assholes out there. James Yeager isn't getting a nickel from me (if you know what I mean).

    As for now I need to get my money back in order.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    There's a bunch out there. Rifles Only is down in Corpus, so not the end of the world in your weirdo huge state. There's another place over in Crestview, FL that Ordnance freaks out about (and I've heard good things from others). I'm not sure of the name, but I think it's CORE. He may chime in with an answer.

    Personally, I went all in and did a Magpul SPR class that was right down your lane. But it was also an early class with the instructor, and I have a feeling at this point that his PR1 class is what you'd be looking for. Again, personally, I liked Caylen's style, but I've also grown up in the .mil "these are your standards...didn't meet them? You should probably suck less" type stuff. That said, he's very patient and not a dick. He was just more of a dick to me because I was shooting well and knew I could handle it. And I totally respect that...especially as an instructor...albeit not of guns. But his theory and explanation of ballistics et al were fantastic, and really clicked with me. To this day, I say my shooting ability increased, even with a RDS, because of what he instilled. Now I'm gushing...

    But I'm not trying to steer you to any one course. I'd do some Googling and find what works for you.
    I wanted to take that class but I believe something happened and it is on hiatus . I'm lucky enough to have a friend with a 100yd pistol 400yd rifle & 1000yd gong and a key to the range so I just need to get this rebuild up and going .

  8. #68
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    The SPR class? It seems like it comes and goes. I think I took it within the first 6 months or so of Caylen starting to teach it, so I think he was still refining it. I took his PR1 class the following year and the SPR class covered 95% of what the PR1 class did. I think people don't want to take a "SPR class" because they see they can shoot farther in the PR1 class. Plus then people can come to the class and show off their $3000 bolt gun.

    In reality, either one is teaching the same basic fundamental skill set, and I got a lot of value out of it.

  9. #69
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    I'm sure someone can produce reasons that the Ultramatch barrels are not worth the money but I actually own 3 and use them fairly often. They are the most forgiving .308 barrels I have ever shot as far as ammo goes. Their CM is a tack driver also but I've only shot a few types of ammo. Clear accuracy improvement over other popular barrels I've used including ones that cost a good bit more.

    21 rounds of Ventura Munitons bulk .308 reloads at 500 yards. 20" Ultramatch. Not bad with a 12x optic.

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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SINNER View Post
    I'm sure someone can produce reasons that the Ultramatch barrels are not worth the money but I actually own 3 and use them fairly often. They are the most forgiving .308 barrels I have ever shot as far as ammo goes. Their CM is a tack driver also but I've only shot a few types of ammo. Clear accuracy improvement over other popular barrels I've used including ones that cost a good bit more.

    21 rounds of Ventura Munitons bulk .308 reloads at 500 yards. 20" Ultramatch. Not bad with a 12x optic.

    Name:  image.jpeg
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    Not bad at all for 500 yards.

  11. #71
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    Out of a .308 semi-auto? Hell yes, that's an easy Elk, or even deer kill at 500 yards. I could usually get those groups or perhaps a bit tighter with a highly tuned bolt action with carefully crafted hand loads. Great groups.
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  12. #72
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    Sinner, what twist rate are you running? Just curious.

  13. #73
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    1:10 twist

  14. #74
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    Your barrel is longer than mine, which may also help with the "cheaper" rounds, but mine is a 1:11.25. I wonder if we're seeing differences based on the different lots of barrels (besides my general inadequacies at marksmanship).

    Regardless, I plan to take mine back out at distance in 2 weeks with 175 SMKs to see how it does. Hopefully my faith is restored.

  15. #75
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    308, 500 yards sounds like a lot of fun..

    No where my area to stretch out like that, sux as the one time or 2 I really got out about that far was a blast..

    Nice shooting just over 1 Moa it appears

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