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  1. #1
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    Okay for mil spec ammo?

    So I finally got my new rifle out to the range and it performed as expected. I just wanted to get some opinions on my shooting using mil spec ammo. This is from a Noveske 14.5" CHF barrel using a mix of American Eagle XM 193 and Independence X193. Using an Aimpoint PRO. I was shooting of a bench with my barrel resting on sandbags (my handguard is on the rest). The center orange part of the target is 3" round.

    It seems to me based on ballistic charts that my 100 yard grouping is rather high with center being about 3" off center from my 50 yard zero instead of about 1.5" (not counting those few rounds high and to the left...user error). I believe that I have some work to do to become a more proficient shooter.

    First target is at 50 yards. 80 rounds.


    Sencond target is 100 yards. 20 rounds.
    Last edited by rxer311; 3 July 2016 at 18:15.

  2. #2
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    There are too many variables to say for sure what is going on just based on your pictures but if you want to go through some kind of specific ammo testing then you will better understand your rifle and the specific ammo you are testing.

    I can go over that in brutal detail but I am not going to bore you.

    First off though if you are going to do a test like this don't mix ammo. Even though it's 'mil spec' the velocities can be wildly off and will cause this kind of deviation.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by rxer311 View Post
    I believe that I have some work to do to become a more proficient shooter.
    I think you might be a fine or fairly decent shooter. What you might need to do is study out a learn more about the process of actual precision shooting. I am not talking about spending a month of sundays on it. In one afternoon with the right stuff you can learn a whole lot and with not much ammo.

    If you have access to a led sled and a chronograph then you have all you need to have solid proof of what's going on.

    I would be willing to bet you that target #1 is all your american eagle and target #2 is your independence.

    Once you understand your gear (taking you out of the equation) then you can work on your own shooting skills better. Your goal might not be to have .5 MOA groups but once you understand the physics involved and how each kind of ammo behaves and how your rifle handles it... then you are starting to get somewhere.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    I think you might be a fine or fairly decent shooter. What you might need to do is study out a learn more about the process of actual precision shooting. I am not talking about spending a month of sundays on it. In one afternoon with the right stuff you can learn a whole lot and with not much ammo.

    If you have access to a led sled and a chronograph then you have all you need to have solid proof of what's going on.

    I would be willing to bet you that target #1 is all your american eagle and target #2 is your independence.

    Once you understand your gear (taking you out of the equation) then you can work on your own shooting skills better. Your goal might not be to have .5 MOA groups but once you understand the physics involved and how each kind of ammo behaves and how your rifle handles it... then you are starting to get somewhere.
    Thanks for the info. My goal is not to have a 0.5 MOA shooter. I just want to be able to shoot mil spec ammo within mil spec parameters. I just want to make sure that myself an my rifle are combat accurate if by some chance SHTF and I would actually need to use it.

    I also think that shooting heavier loads through my 1:7 twist barrel might also tighten up the groups.

    I have never actually been "taught" how to shoot. I just go to the range and do. My goal is to get some formal training in the near future as my gear is useless if I can't do my part.

  5. #5
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    FYI...the 100 yard target was all Independence ammo. The first target is mixed.

  6. #6
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    Lots of blah blah blah, but at the end of the day, don't worry about what a ballistics calculator says, see what your rifle does (which you have). If you've zeroed at 50, and are happy with the results (and given all the variables, I don't see why you shouldn't be), then what you get (with the same type ammo) at 100y is what you get. Learn that off-set and then use that hold when you need it.

    FWIW, your 50y group seems to be favoring the left side a bit, so it makes sense that you're shooting a bit more left at 100y. Maybe one click right on the PRO and it will come over to center more. Otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rxer311 View Post
    Thanks for the info. My goal is not to have a 0.5 MOA shooter. I just want to be able to shoot mil spec ammo within mil spec parameters. I just want to make sure that myself an my rifle are combat accurate if by some chance SHTF and I would actually need to use it.

    I also think that shooting heavier loads through my 1:7 twist barrel might also tighten up the groups.

    I have never actually been "taught" how to shoot. I just go to the range and do. My goal is to get some formal training in the near future as my gear is useless if I can't do my part.
    You might and probably will get 10 different solutions here from different people. Not everyone is going to take the same approach.

    When I first started testing ammo I got 5 or 6 boxes of 20 rounds of various ammo and took a scientific approach to figuring out how each performs in a specific gun. With 100 rounds or less of ammo you can learn a ton. Again you are not trying to get so sub moa performance but knowing how it works matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by rxer311 View Post
    FYI...the 100 yard target was all Independence ammo. The first target is mixed.
    Yep. I figured it was something like that. Independence is a hotter load. At 50 yards your deviation and exit point during your barrel whip is less noticeable. At 100 yards it opens up and becomes a lot more noticeable.

    Here's the crux of it (in my opinion) but without knowing more it's impossible to say. When you shoot brand X of ammo there will be a certain type of powder that has a certain burn rate, a certain type of brass, and it will have it's own signature 'boom'. Assuming you are using the exact same projectiles this is still true.

    When you pull the trigger you have barrel whip. Depending on which way your rifling is your barrel will whip in a circular type motion even if on a micro level. The key to consistency is to get the same exit point during that whip. If your bullets all exit your barrel at the 2:00 position you will have much better groups.

    From round to round even in the same brand you will find variations in velocities. The more consistent you can get the better.

    Now if you switch ammo brands and they use different powders or different primers or both their loads might be a lot lighter or a lot hotter. Instead of your bullet exiting your barrel at the 2:00 position they might be exiting the barrel at the 9:00 position. If you measure it in a scientific kind of way you will notice major points of impact shifts based around that alone.

    Not to mention that one ammo might be 200fps slower or faster out of the same barrel and same gun therefore all of your 'ballistics' is based around bad data. As would be the zero on your optic.

    Closer in the differences aren't as apparent to the untrained eye... but get out to 100 yards and you can see impact points shifting A LOT based merely on ammo choices. Powder choices of the manufacturer, the consistency of their loads, the burn rate of the powder, the resulting velocity all matters. It points to what happened on your targets above.

    The best solution is once you find an ammo you like... buy a couple cases of it and go from there. When you run out buy something else and re-zero later on so then you are GTG.

    Independence ammo however is in my experience notoriously inconsistent.

  8. #8
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    The question is: Are the groups okay with YOU?

    You said its a new rifle. How much experience do you have shooting ARs?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Lots of blah blah blah, but at the end of the day, don't worry about what a ballistics calculator says, see what your rifle does (which you have). If you've zeroed at 50, and are happy with the results (and given all the variables, I don't see why you shouldn't be), then what you get (with the same type ammo) at 100y is what you get. Learn that off-set and then use that hold when you need it.

    FWIW, your 50y group seems to be favoring the left side a bit, so it makes sense that you're shooting a bit more left at 100y. Maybe one click right on the PRO and it will come over to center more. Otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it.
    100% Agree.

    I'm probably over simplifying it... but shooting with a 2-4 MOA Optic (depending on your setting), using a barrel that's probably 1-2 MOA, and ammo that's 2-3 MOA plus whatever the shooters ability is. I can live with it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Former11B View Post
    The question is: Are the groups okay with YOU?

    You said its a new rifle. How much experience do you have shooting ARs?
    I am not "new" to shooting ARs but I don't shoot nearly as much as I would like. I bought my first rifle about 5 years ago, went to the range, set up a target and went to town. Nobody ever taught me how to shoot so I guess I am "self taught" and have probably picked up a lot of bad habits.

    My goal for the near future is to take some carbine classes from some local instructors and then go from there.

    I just wanted to make sure that I am at least in the right ball park with my given gear. I do find it kind of funny that I have spend thousands of dollars on rifles and gear, but haven't spent the money to hone my skills .

    Admittedly, building rifles is as much of the hobby for me as going out and shooting them, its just a lot of fun. Learning to use my gear to its full potential is the next step for me.

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