9mm AR vs .300 Blackout

[UWone77]

I like the MPX, but not in love with it. It's heavy for its size. Heavier than some AR's 's just due to the bulk of the receivers with the width of the buffer springs running side by side of the rear charging handle... just to eject 9mm?

The MP5 is an old design, but I would argue 9mm platforms now are marginally better than a 60 year old design. However, what the newer 9mm platform has going for them is price. No one wants to pay 5-6K on an HK (unless you just have to have everything HK), 3K on a neutered SP5K, and clones are about the same price.

I wanted an MP5 just because I've always wanted one, and they are fun shooters. The lack of F/A does kill the fun factor though. My MKE finally came in on a Form 3 transfer to RA, so I'll form 4 it later this week or Monday. I also got an Omega K from Atlantic, so I'll eventually Form 1 that as well. This one might take awhile as it's more of a side project so I'll get it eventually converted over.

[Joelski]

I like the MPX, but not in love with it. It's heavy for its size. Heavier than some AR's 's just due to the bulk of the receivers with the width of the buffer springs running side by side of the rear charging handle... just to eject 9mm?

The MP5 is an old design, but I would argue 9mm platforms now are marginally better than a 60 year old design. However, what the newer 9mm platform has going for them is price. No one wants to pay 5-6K on an HK (unless you just have to have everything HK), 3K on a neutered SP5K, and clones are about the same price.

I wanted an MP5 just because I've always wanted one, and they are fun shooters. The lack of F/A does kill the fun factor though. My MKE finally came in on a Form 3 transfer to RA, so I'll form 4 it later this week or Monday. I also got an Omega K from Atlantic, so I'll eventually Form 1 that as well. This one might take awhile as it's more of a side project so I'll get it eventually converted over.

With all the hardware you have awaiting final transfer, do you get anything done after the conjugal visits to RA?

[UWone77]

With all the hardware you have awaiting final transfer, do you get anything done after the conjugal visits to RA?

I don't get too excited about crap that's pending.... only when it's approved!

[Joelski]

You sayin' you don't get to "visit" your form 3 stuff once it's at the dealer?

[UWone77]

You sayin' you don't get to "visit" your form 3 stuff once it's at the dealer?

It's hard to get excited if you don't get to shoot it and/or take it home. I don't think I've ever gone back to their safe to look at my pending stuff.

[alamo5000]

It's hard to get excited if you don't get to shoot it and/or take it home. I don't think I've ever gone back to their safe to look at my pending stuff.

I was tempted to go try and visit some of my stuff but at the end of the day I figured it just makes the wait that much worse.

[alamo5000]

Just some additional info for alamo... The POF mags have a very good reputation and mine have run flawlessly. They're reasonably priced, compared to true HK mags, and are for sale new at several of the standard HK parts vendors regularly.

Could I buy POF mags and they work fine in the Zenith gun? I don't see why not since they are basically clones of the same firearm group.

At the end of the day I am into this as a hobby but sometimes it's almost like a chick trying to find a perfect wedding dress.

As for firearms I am not 'hard' on my guns. I generally take very good care of everything. But if I bite the bullet and get 4 or 5 mags that would last me a really long time. Typically I will test all the mags out and then just use one or two for all my plinking and then keep 4 or 5 or more for backup.

[alamo5000]

I thought I did, but let me recap/expand:
1) Ergonomics/manual of arms: same as AR. Last round bolt hold Open.
2) Modularity: limited shared components with AR, but includes trigger and pistol grip, which lets you tailor #1. Full length top pic rail. Modern, free float KeyMod handguard
3) construction: machined/assembled design allows the owner/operator to rebuild/replace almost everything with limited tooling. I personally place a very high value on being able to rebarrel a weapon on my own. The MPX design is quite innovative here and barrel assembly (which includes gas block/piston) swaps are trivial (this is to allow for the future caliber conversions).
4) OEM/parts support: MPX is a new production weapon that you buy direct from the original manufacturer. If you buy a clone or licensed production import, you are several steps and geographically removed from the OEM. If you buy an HK, I'm not sure what kind of support HK will give you since they haven't sold roller lock rifles to the US civilian population in decades. The main reason HK clones are so expensive is because of the limited supply of parts, especially original HK parts. That fact that Turkey and Pakistan are turning out licensed built versions is helping, but I don't think any actually believes the quality is as good as the "made in Germany" stuff. I keep hoping PTR will get into the 9mm game under license from HK.
5) Mags: Newly designed Lancer mags that load like an AR mag (lay round on top, push down). Not a huge advance, as I think the MP5 mags are supposed to be pretty good if you buy the more expensive OEM mags, but much better than pistol mags, IMO


#3 is actually very important to me and is what renders HK roller-locks as "collectibles" for me. I like to be able to work on my own weapons and the HK roller-lock guns construction limits what an amateur can do without a 20-ton press and welding skills. Arguably, this is less important on a 9mm, but is a huge advantage of the AR15/10 design over the HK33/G3 designs if you want improve your weapon's accuracy by upgrading the barrel. Not only do you have a ton of great barrels to chose from, but it's pretty easy to swap barrels with an AR design.

Thank you for that. (seriously)

Here is my take on what you're saying. It's not a rebuttal but rather a way of thinking which can be right or wrong or just opinion but hopefully I can get more feedback. Per your list...

1. Last round hold open...I don't see why this is such a big deal. Not a deal breaker for me since my steel targets aren't going to run away while I change mags. I imagine the hold open would be nice but I am not sure of the tactical advantage of it or why so many people make a big deal about it ESPECIALLY for range toys.

on the ergonomics front I do find that very important. Things like that lever on the scorpion that will gouge into your finger... I wouldn't buy one just for that reason alone (if that's all there was to it)...but provided it's comfortable to handle I can live with that. Customization is a big deal which is one reason why I keep thinking AR9. Now all that said when I went out shooting that MP5 that my friend has I didn't find it uncomfortable at all. That said it would be nice to be able to pick up and handle a gun before buying just to make sure.

2. I have never really been big into adding wigits onto my guns although Slipper's light officially qualifies as the first thing. I like it a lot. If I could do an AR9 with an Mlok handguard that would allow me the greatest amount of customization.

3. I too place a lot of value on being able to work on a gun in a reasonable fashion. Which is one reason why I like the AR9 idea. From what I've seen breaking down a H&K variant will yield a bucket full of pins and springs and looks pretty much like a pain in the ass.

4. On parts for the H&K I don't know if I would like someday paying $60 bucks for some spring or whatever but one would hope there is a supply of parts just based sheerly off of longevity... but I guess not.

5. With the mags once I find a half dozen good mags I am not worried about it. I won't pay $150 each for them but 6 or 7 mags would last me a really long time. So once I pony up money up front I am generally good for a while.

At the end of the day I really like the one in the video I put up but there are pros to other things too.

Honestly an AR9 still seems like it would fit me and my wants better but I am more confused than ever on that concept. There simply isn't one dominant 'standard' out there so I feel like I am building my first AR15 again. I don't know what parts on an AR9 are standard parts from an AR15 and which ones aren't.

I mean simple stuff... is the upper being used a standard AR15 upper? Is it proprietary? Can I get a CMC trigger and drop it in an AR9 and have it work? Can I use a standard AR15 handguard? It seems like they used as much standard parts as they could but just shrunk down the magwell but I could be totally wrong on that front.

Basically put I haven't found the perfect solution yet but there are some things that have a lot of potential.

[gatordev]

Could I buy POF mags and they work fine in the Zenith gun? I don't see why not since they are basically clones of the same firearm group.

I would use the Google machine to confirm, but I'm guessing you wouldn't have an issue.

[alamo5000]

The MP5 is an old design, but I would argue 9mm platforms now are marginally better than a 60 year old design. However, what the newer 9mm platform has going for them is price.

I like the way you think. I don't know that a snazzy new wigit is 'substantially' better or more reliable although like I mentioned I think with the H&K clone there would be a learning curve to do a full breakdown. I also don't like over paying.

If I could build a solid AR9 for $1500 bucks or even more than that I would be fine but truth be told I don't care for how they look. To me buying a glock mag AR9 is like buying a smart car. Yeah they work but they aren't the prettiest thing to look at.

I do and I don't get why everybody and their brother are gravitating to the two main mag choices but to me both are kind of a turn off especially for something I will have for 25 years or more.

[OTShooter]

I just stumbled on this thread, and I think I have some useful experience to share.

First, my first SBR was a 9mm AR. NOT a dedicated 9mm, but the Form 1 configuration is in 9mm with a 10" barrel. I have a Rock River magazine block, and it runs all my various magazines flawlessly. That's because the block is adjustable, not because Colt-style 9mm AR magazines are all perfect, but because I can set the mag block where it needs to be to run all my mags.

So point #1 with 9mm ARs is that magazines make a huge difference. And I think magazine selection should drive what sort of 9mm AR one decides on.

Which leads to this: My second SBR is a QC10 GSF lower, that I currently run with the 10" 9mm upper. I will eventually get a .40 S&W upper for it - that was the ultimate purpose in going with this particular dedicated design: to get a .40 S&W carbine/SBR for all forms of "social interaction."

My first 300 Blackout gun is an 8" upper that runs on my first SBR lower. Like a top, I might add. I think 300 Blackout almost demands handloading, at least as of now, but it's a very flexible round. I don't have a .30 can at the moment, but that's a definite plan. It's a blast to shoot unsuppressed and supersonic, and I've developed some surprisingly accurate loads with 110gr, 120gr and 150gr bullets.

Point #1 for 300 Blackout is that it's all about the ammo. If you don't handload, you're at the mercy of the ammo makers. If you do, it's all about taking your time and developing loads that do what you want them to do.

With both of my pistol caliber setups and my Blackout setup, all the ergonomics are exactly the same as with any standard AR, and yes I use exactly the same buffer and spring for the 9mms and for the Blackout.

Sig's MPX has me salivating, but for now I think I will have to hold off and just watch the show. I hope to have an MP5 clone before I invest in a Sig. More affordable and I actually have a little trigger time with an MP5...

[alamo5000]

I just stumbled on this thread, and I think I have some useful experience to share.

First, my first SBR was a 9mm AR. NOT a dedicated 9mm, but the Form 1 configuration is in 9mm with a 10" barrel. I have a Rock River magazine block, and it runs all my various magazines flawlessly. That's because the block is adjustable, not because Colt-style 9mm AR magazines are all perfect, but because I can set the mag block where it needs to be to run all my mags.

So point #1 with 9mm ARs is that magazines make a huge difference. And I think magazine selection should drive what sort of 9mm AR one decides on.

Which leads to this: My second SBR is a QC10 GSF lower, that I currently run with the 10" 9mm upper. I will eventually get a .40 S&W upper for it - that was the ultimate purpose in going with this particular dedicated design: to get a .40 S&W carbine/SBR for all forms of "social interaction."

My first 300 Blackout gun is an 8" upper that runs on my first SBR lower. Like a top, I might add. I think 300 Blackout almost demands handloading, at least as of now, but it's a very flexible round. I don't have a .30 can at the moment, but that's a definite plan. It's a blast to shoot unsuppressed and supersonic, and I've developed some surprisingly accurate loads with 110gr, 120gr and 150gr bullets.

Point #1 for 300 Blackout is that it's all about the ammo. If you don't handload, you're at the mercy of the ammo makers. If you do, it's all about taking your time and developing loads that do what you want them to do.

With both of my pistol caliber setups and my Blackout setup, all the ergonomics are exactly the same as with any standard AR, and yes I use exactly the same buffer and spring for the 9mms and for the Blackout.

Sig's MPX has me salivating, but for now I think I will have to hold off and just watch the show. I hope to have an MP5 clone before I invest in a Sig. More affordable and I actually have a little trigger time with an MP5...

Thanks for your post. I am a big reloader so that's not a problem. For me there are pros and cons of each kind of setup. A .300 BLK is good because I have an SBR'ed lower already. It's not good because I don't have a can for it yet, however I do have the option of using my 9mm can on it just so long as I shoot all subs all the time. The cost to shoot it though is higher and it means while I am trying to get out of so many calibers that I will be adding a caliber.

A dedicated 9mm SBR is probably the best option for me but so far I haven't found what just turns me on in that area.

A couple of points of my own... 1) I am definitely gonna get deeper into the NFA game. There is just no getting around it. That applies to more SBR's and more suppressors. 2) I am not very good at buying blindly. You can pretty much ask anybody here about that one. But before I buy and commit to an SBR I think I need to shoot em before I buy em. That's kind of difficult because I have been to an actual public gun range I think once or maybe twice in 2 or 3 years. The last time I actually went to a public range was about 2 years back. Basically I need to drag my ass down to Houston somewhere and just rent the guns and do a side by side.

On top of all that I have to just make priorities about all the stuff I want. As of right now I am leaning to getting a nice long range precision rifle first because it is something I like to do a whole lot and it's a 'hole' in my firearms line up. If I can ever get my butt back to working full time it will make a whole lot of this stuff easier. Basically there is a lot of stuff not related to guns at all that's holding me up right now.