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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    You're probably right; looking at the pictures, it appears that the Bootleg also uses YFS screws for the gas keys, which was the complaint on the Gemtech carrier that I saw. I've also heard similar things about the Bootleg being somewhat overgassed even on the lowest setting (an issue I've certainly had with my PWS MK110's adjustable gas block).
    Isn't Bootleg a division of PWS?

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtdawg169 View Post
    Isn't Bootleg a division of PWS?
    Yep, which is why I brought up the fact that my MK110 was overgassed, despite it being a piston weapon; it would lock back just fine at the smallest gas port, while running a Vltor A5 RE with a Sprinco Green Spring and one of Clint's heavy buffers with all tungsten weights (which Clint states to be ~10.0 oz. on his webpage). I've also heard people running XM193 just fine on the 3rd setting for a MK1 Mod 1 rifle, which is nominally for suppressed use (the Mod 1s had 4 settings). I guess PWS/Bootleg tends toward being overgassed in general?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    Yep, which is why I brought up the fact that my MK110 was overgassed, despite it being a piston weapon; it would lock back just fine at the smallest gas port, while running a Vltor A5 RE with a Sprinco Green Spring and one of Clint's heavy buffers with all tungsten weights (which Clint states to be ~10.0 oz. on his webpage). I've also heard people running XM193 just fine on the 3rd setting for a MK1 Mod 1 rifle, which is nominally for suppressed use (the Mod 1s had 4 settings). I guess PWS/Bootleg tends toward being overgassed in general?
    I'd guess the PWS and many other guns are built with the idea that people will tend to run them with cheap (ie Tula/Wolf) ammo and set gas ports accordingly.

    I had an older non-adjustable PWS MK116. It cycled fast without my AAC can. When suppressed the action was so fast the gun would routinely stove pipe. This was with stuff like Federal Fusion and M193-ish reloads.

    My solution there was to use a VLTOR RE and the heaviest A5 buffer along with a Springco spring. Even then the gun had what I thought was an excessive bolt velocity.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by usbp379 View Post
    I'd guess the PWS and many other guns are built with the idea that people will tend to run them with cheap (ie Tula/Wolf) ammo and set gas ports accordingly.
    While I can subscribe to that notion (Daniel Defense's civilian MK18 being a notorious offender on this, while KAC has also bowed to demand, apparently), I find it dumb to make an adjustable system still be way overgassed, given that there are clearly an option to allow for people to run shitty ammo without any modifications.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    While I can subscribe to that notion (Daniel Defense's civilian MK18 being a notorious offender on this, while KAC has also bowed to demand, apparently), I find it dumb to make an adjustable system still be way overgassed, given that there are clearly an option to allow for people to run shitty ammo without any modifications.
    Yep. Larger ports = less warranty returns.

    KAC did bow to this to a degree, but their port still seems very reasonable and I wouldn't call it overgassed by any stretch. I owned one of the first Legacy SR15s sold, with the original gas port sizing. I loved how that gun shot. But it was definitely more temperamental about ammo selection.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtdawg169 View Post
    Yep. Larger ports = less warranty returns.
    Certainly makes sense. Who's going to get the call when a gun won't run? The ammo company or the rifle company?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Default.mp3 View Post
    You're probably right; looking at the pictures, it appears that the Bootleg also uses YFS screws for the gas keys, which was the complaint on the Gemtech carrier that I saw. I've also heard similar things about the Bootleg being somewhat overgassed even on the lowest setting (an issue I've certainly had with my PWS MK110's adjustable gas block).
    I have two Gemtech SBCs and both have YFS screws. The staking definitely wasn't done by a MOACKs tool, but I'd say it's adequate.
    Will - Owner of Arisaka LLC - http://www.arisakadefense.com

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippers View Post
    I have two Gemtech SBCs and both have YFS screws. The staking definitely wasn't done by a MOACKs tool, but I'd say it's adequate.
    Isn't staking something that should be better given the price?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by usbp379 View Post
    Isn't staking something that should be better given the price?
    One would think so, but that's often not the case. I mean, they saved, like $0.03 per carrier by using those YFS screws instead of the correct grade 8 screws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippers View Post
    I have two Gemtech SBCs and both have YFS screws. The staking definitely wasn't done by a MOACKs tool, but I'd say it's adequate.
    Here's something else to consider. The YFS screws have a rounded shoulder and little to no knurling. So that stake has less material to push into vs the correct screw with a straight wall, aggressive knurling and flat head. It may not be as secure as we might think. Thankfully, it's an easy fix. Remove, replace, re-stake, done.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtdawg169 View Post
    Yep. Larger ports = less warranty returns.

    KAC did bow to this to a degree, but their port still seems very reasonable and I wouldn't call it overgassed by any stretch. I owned one of the first Legacy SR15s sold, with the original gas port sizing. I loved how that gun shot. But it was definitely more temperamental about ammo selection.
    You nailed it with the Legacy's. They don't like underpowered cheap ammo, which is not a bad thing.

    I almost wish manufacturers had a hobby and pro line. If you want to shoot any and all ammo, use this overgassed hobby gun. Obviously we know that's not realistic.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtdawg169 View Post
    One would think so, but that's often not the case. I mean, they saved, like $0.03 per carrier by using those YFS screws instead of the correct grade 8 screws.

    Here's something else to consider. The YFS screws have a rounded shoulder and little to no knurling. So that stake has less material to push into vs the correct screw with a straight wall, aggressive knurling and flat head. It may not be as secure as we might think. Thankfully, it's an easy fix. Remove, replace, re-stake, done.
    The way they stake it, both the screw heads and gas key get smushed together. I guess Gemtech didn't see any issue with the staking and screws to slap their name on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    You nailed it with the Legacy's. They don't like underpowered cheap ammo, which is not a bad thing.

    I almost wish manufacturers had a hobby and pro line. If you want to shoot any and all ammo, use this overgassed hobby gun. Obviously we know that's not realistic.
    Except all the hobby users would still buy the pro line, because they want to be "operators." And then they'd complain. :)
    Will - Owner of Arisaka LLC - http://www.arisakadefense.com

  12. #42
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    The Ruger AR-556 seems to be selling well. I imagine most AR "snobs" would consider it a hobbyist gun.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by usbp379 View Post
    Certainly makes sense. Who's going to get the call when a gun won't run? The ammo company or the rifle company?
    It depends on the problem I guess. That though is where being a member of a forum like this one (or having experience) matters a lot. Research things out and make wise decisions and a lot of the firearm side of that equation is diminished to some degree.

    As for ammo the cost isn't the only reason why I reload. But for the people buying ammo here is what I don't get...why there aren't more ammo manufacturers out there. I am sure there is enough paperwork that you need a mule and a cart in order to haul it to the right people to apply for all the licenses....

    But considering what the mark up is on ammo it seems like more people could get into it. If I can load a single round of ammo and sell it for triple what it costs to make you would think that's a good business opportunity provided the scale and so forth to get into it.

    It makes me question the entire chain... primers...powder... whatever....

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    You nailed it with the Legacy's. They don't like underpowered cheap ammo, which is not a bad thing.

    I almost wish manufacturers had a hobby and pro line. If you want to shoot any and all ammo, use this overgassed hobby gun. Obviously we know that's not realistic.
    People buying $2k rifles and shooting the cheapest ammo they can find through them. I don't get it.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Former11B View Post
    People buying $2k rifles and shooting the cheapest ammo they can find through them. I don't get it.
    That was my argument when they decided to change the port size. But I can't blame KAC. That gun was their first foray into the commercial market in a long time. For them, it became a question of protecting the Brand. Because no matter the reasons, people are going to complain. And when enough people complain, the internet takes over. Folks like us that would reply, "stop shooting crap ammo" are the minority.

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