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  1. #31
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    Where is a good place to pick up used DBALs ?Extra's UW ?

  2. #32
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    Here's another cool video... I am learning... I am learning alot...


  3. #33
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    So basically the illuminator sends out a 'cone' of light that can only be seen using NV. The laser sends out a targeting beam like any other laser only it's used for aiming purposes. Again it can only be seen using NV.

    Correct?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    So basically the illuminator sends out a 'cone' of light that can only be seen using NV. The laser sends out a targeting beam like any other laser only it's used for aiming purposes. Again it can only be seen using NV.

    Correct?
    Yes.

    To be extremely reductive, an IR illuminator can be thought of as an IR flashlight.

    The major difference between something like a surefire with a vampire head and an IR illuminator is that generally, you can adjust the size or intensity of the IR beam with the illuminator. The surefire/vampire is a fixed output. Also, in my experience, IR illuminators can usually be focused down to reach longer distances v. a surefire/vampire.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    That's not really how NV (or thermal) works. Can you tell the difference between 4-legs and 2-legs? Absolutely. But you can't really ID friend or foe from 100y unless you know the specific person and their normal mannerisms (and sometimes their clothes, depending on what they may normally wear and how it is conveyed in near IR).

    Also, I'm curious...why does actively sending IR energy out worry you vs. passive? Pigs can't see IR, unless they're also wearing NVDs.



    Oh, it's not an illuminator, my friend...



    We have them on our GAUs and M240s.
    Admittedly, I don't keep up with the latest military gear, and I'm not one of those crazy cloners. Military gear for the most part is cost prohibitive and unavailable, so I don't pay attention too much. I do appreciate bringing in your knowledge though!

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    Another thing (for me) that would qualify as a passing concern about any kind of laser in a rural area with dense vegetation would be 'obstruction' of the laser's path. If the pigs are say walking around in 2 feet of weeds and you can see and clearly identify them but how would obstructions such as tree branches, tall weeds, or maybe even just shooting from a blind be handled?
    It's a beam of energy, just like a flashlight. A laser is a focused beam of energy, an illuminator is an array of energy. Either way, if something is in the way, it will reflect it. The guy in that video wasn't skittish because of the obstructions and his laser, he's skittish because of the obstructions and his bullet. On the civilian side, if something reflects the energy back at you (tree, post, etc), it's not going to cause an issue. On more powerful .mil lasers, the reflection of the energy may still be within the NOHD of that particular system, so it can be a concern. But that's not something you'd have to worry about with Class IIIa (or lower) lasers.

    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    Admittedly, I don't keep up with the latest military gear, and I'm not one of those crazy cloners. Military gear for the most part is cost prohibitive and unavailable, so I don't pay attention too much. I do appreciate bringing in your knowledge though!
    Says the guy with a contract DD barrel and a PEQ-2... Next thing you're going to tell me is that Stick doesn't know he has a GL/SSC!

    Some day one of those shall be mine...

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    It's a beam of energy, just like a flashlight. A laser is a focused beam of energy, an illuminator is an array of energy. Either way, if something is in the way, it will reflect it. The guy in that video wasn't skittish because of the obstructions and his laser, he's skittish because of the obstructions and his bullet. On the civilian side, if something reflects the energy back at you (tree, post, etc), it's not going to cause an issue. On more powerful .mil lasers, the reflection of the energy may still be within the NOHD of that particular system, so it can be a concern. But that's not something you'd have to worry about with Class IIIa (or lower) lasers.



    Says the guy with a contract DD barrel and a PEQ-2... Next thing you're going to tell me is that Stick doesn't know he has a GL/SSC!

    Some day one of those shall be mine...
    LOL... if Stick didn't introduce me to certain people, I wouldn't have searched for those items on my own.

    The PEQ-2 I bought from another LEO who worked as a contractor in Iraq, never ended up using it as they were issued PEQ-15's when he arrived. Never had to use it and brought it back in unused condition.

    I've shot Stick GL/SSC upper, I guess I don't know what the excitement is over. I guess I had to be in the service to understand that one.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by alamo5000 View Post
    All that said I would like to learn more about the capabilities and range limitations of this stuff. I've for sure never tried to positively ID a human at night using NV but am I just bullshitting by thinking that I could tell if that person was armed or not or some other basic information? I don't really know the limitations of different setups and all that.
    ... generally speaking yes. But night vision is dependent on external light sources (ie: moonlight). So if you're in pitch black conditions, your night vision devices will not work properly. Thermal on the other hand, is not affected by this -- it is however, affected by glass. Can't see through it -- however, you can see through glass with night vision devices.

    Just some general info for you to pick at, thermal (IR) is divided up into 3 sections on the invisible light spectrum. SWIR, MWIR, and LWIR.

    SWIR: short wave IR - typically your 0.7-2 µm
    MWIR: mid-wave IR - typically your 3-5 µm
    LWIR: long-wave IR - typically your 8-14 µm

    NIR: near IR, on the other hand is where your night vision devices operate in


    For thermal there's 2 types of polarity. White hot and black hot. Generally speaking white hot is used for detection, and black hot is used for identification -- but at the end of the day, individual operator's experience and preference will dictate which is used. Switching between the 2 polarities can also help catch overlooked targets.

    In terms of resources for learning on night vision and thermal, don't know much on the civilian side.

    For the Army side however, there's a really good resource out there (CAC login): https://rocv.army.mil/

    All you can ever want to learn about I² (aka what everyone calls night vision) and thermal - cause technically both fall under the purview of "night vision"

    Oh and alamo, you'll get a kick out of this - check out the AN/PSQ-20. (The result of NVG + IR = E-NVG)
    Find my photos on: Flickr, Facebook, Instagram

  9. #39
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    I'm assuming that AN/PSQ-20 cost more then my car , hell I need the exercise .
    Anybody wanna buy a 45mpg German deisel ?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    I've shot Stick GL/SSC upper, I guess I don't know what the excitement is over. I guess I had to be in the service to understand that one.
    Nothing substantially special about, just that it's very rare. Plus I want one because it would look super-sharp on my 12.5" Centurion Arms go to shooter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thompson View Post
    ... generally speaking yes. But night vision is dependent on external light sources (ie: moonlight). So if you're in pitch black conditions, your night vision devices will not work properly. Thermal on the other hand, is not affected by this -- it is however, affected by glass. Can't see through it -- however, you can see through glass with night vision devices.
    Thermal can also be effected by "thermal crossover," which happens when ambient air and objects become the same temperature. This usually happens at dusk and dawn, but can also happen on a hot night. Oh, and thermal is also affected by particulate, specifically humidity or rain. Probably not as big a deal at the ranges that would applicable to shooting/hunting, but is a major issue when trying to ID something more than a mile or two away.

  11. #41
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    Thank you all for your time and effort to "educate" me. The take away I get from all of your replies is that this is a much more complicated subject than I thought.

    My tongue-in-cheek response to Stickman's question as to why I wanted a laser, was not a lack of sincerity, or that I don't take firearms seriously, but just a chance for me to say, in a light tone, that this was something I was interested in, truthfully, to play with, but a serious tool I could use in the unlikely event I ever would need it for self defense purposes. I'm red-faced, when I realized the folly of trying to find a target in the dark with a "red dot" from a laser, that I can't see in the first place. I really didn't think that through...duh...pretty obvious.

    However, reading through all of the responses, there's a lot more to it than I thought, and I didn't realize just how much. I thought, through ignorance that I could get something on the order of a glorified laser pointer, set up some targets, in a barn, and point and shoot without having to properly aim. However, I'm going to take a mulligan on that, since I did absolve myself of guilt, as I proclaimed, truthfully, ignorance of the subject, from the start.

    NV gear comes into play, and I truly envy the "younger" crowd who has the latest, coolest gear I've (never) seen. It's come a long way since I retired in '95, to the point that it's totally alien to me, and also a super heavy chunk of change to buy it, and a laser. Way to much for shooting bats in the barn.

    If nothing else, though, it's been a very informative thread for me, and possibly others who might have misconceptions about lasers and AR's.

    So, again, I thank you all for your time and input.

    FT.
    NRA Life Member
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortTom View Post
    Thank you all for your time and effort to "educate" me. The take away I get from all of your replies is that this is a much more complicated subject than I thought.

    My tongue-in-cheek response to Stickman's question as to why I wanted a laser, was not a lack of sincerity, or that I don't take firearms seriously, but just a chance for me to say, in a light tone, that this was something I was interested in, truthfully, to play with, but a serious tool I could use in the unlikely event I ever would need it for self defense purposes. I'm red-faced, when I realized the folly of trying to find a target in the dark with a "red dot" from a laser, that I can't see in the first place. I really didn't think that through...duh...pretty obvious.

    However, reading through all of the responses, there's a lot more to it than I thought, and I didn't realize just how much. I thought, through ignorance that I could get something on the order of a glorified laser pointer, set up some targets, in a barn, and point and shoot without having to properly aim. However, I'm going to take a mulligan on that, since I did absolve myself of guilt, as I proclaimed, truthfully, ignorance of the subject, from the start.

    NV gear comes into play, and I truly envy the "younger" crowd who has the latest, coolest gear I've (never) seen. It's come a long way since I retired in '95, to the point that it's totally alien to me, and also a super heavy chunk of change to buy it, and a laser. Way to much for shooting bats in the barn.

    If nothing else, though, it's been a very informative thread for me, and possibly others who might have misconceptions about lasers and AR's.

    So, again, I thank you all for your time and input.

    FT.
    Don't sweat it man. No need to apologize or explain yourself. I say keep bringing it. If you have questions ask. That way I won't be the only one around here asking complicated questions

    I can say that I learned a lot from this thread too. From the whole forum I have learned a lot. Thankfully everyone here is entertaining and knowledgeable both.

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