Need Help Tightening Up My Groups

[rxer311]

Took out my new rifle today and I would like some advice on what I might be able to do to tighten up my groups. I set this rifle up to be a Recce type rifle with more accuracy as a priority while still maintaining the ability to be used in multiple roles. My disclaimer for this post is that I have very little experience with magnified optics. I have probably less than 200 rounds downrange in my lifetime through any magnified optic. Here are the pertinent specs of the rifle:

1. SMOS GFY chassis
2. Larue 16" PredatAR barrel (1:8 twist, 5R rifled, SS)
3. Vortex Strike Eagle 1-6x scope in Burris PEPR QD mount
4. Ruger 2 stage trigger



First I zeroed my rifle for 50 yards per the instructions on the use of the BDC reticle on the Vortex Strike Eagle scope. I shot with my FF rail resting on sandbags with no rear rest. I zeroed at 50 yards with PMC X-Tac 62gr green tip 855 mil spec ammo. The first picture is of the full target. The center of the target is getting sighted in. The top right is a 5 round group to get a more precise zero. The top left target is a 5 round group that represents my final zero. I made an adjustment of 2 clicks down between the top right and top left target. Those 2 5 round groups make a very good 10 round group of about an inch at 50 yards with 62 gr mil spec ammo. Because of this I was expecting 2-3" groups at 100 yards.





See the next post for 100 yard groups.

[rxer311]

So here are my 100 yard groups with various ammo. I was a bit disappointed that the groups were not tighter with how well the rifle was shooting at 50 yards. This is where I need some input and help. For reference the point of aim is center target at 100 yards with a 50 yard zero.

1. 100 yards. Independence M193 55gr mil spec(5.56) (I know that this is not good precision ammo, just shot it to see what it would do)


2. 100 yards. PMC X-Tac 855 62gr green tip mil spec (5.56).
Never mind (I thought I saved the target but I did not). This would be the most helpful target for my post, however, the grouping looked very similar to the group below. It was at about the same group size. I did not really see any difference in group size between the Hornady below and the PMC X-Tac. I must have lost it thinking it was the group from below.

3. 100 yards. Hornady 68gr BT Match Ammo (.223).


While reviewing my results I believe that the barrel like ammo in the 62 gr range since the match ammo at a heavier weight did not perform better than the Mil Spec 62gr stuff. Anyway, any insight into helping me tighten up these groups would be great. The next time I go out I am going to try out some Black Hills 62 Gr Match ammo and see how that performs. It just seems too me that there is a big difference in my ability at 50 yards and 100 yards.

Another odd point to mention:

I did shoot 10 rounds at 200 yards with the PMC X-Tac 62 gr green tips but did not keep the target because it wont tell you much. At 200 yards I expected my groups to come back down towards the center of the target with a 50 yard zero. This was not the case. The groups actually raised higher and were impacting above the target. I only had 4 rounds on target with the point of aim center target. Point of impact was somewhere above the target with just 4 rounds impacting the top of the target. I expected the point of impact to come down. I know that I am not that bad of a shot.

[alamo5000]

Which hash mark were you using for your zero and aiming point?

Your scope is already favoring high in your zero at 50 yards. This gets compounded out when you go to 100 yards.

Also at a 100 yards the bullet is still on the rise. A 50 yard zero will give you almost a 1 inch high hit at 100 yards based sheerly on ballistics of the bullet. Basically bullets don't fly in a straight line. One inch of that is naturally high, the other inch is because your zero is slightly high. Basically you need to bring your scope down a little bit.

Other than that I would attribute the groups to using not as good ammo. If you insist on using 55 or 62 grain bullets I certainly wouldn't go near Independence ammo to try to get a group of anything except hitting a man size target at 100 yards.

We can give you a lot of technical information on it but basically you should try a whole lot more different (and better) kinds of ammo. With that twist rate your barrel should be right at home with a 69 to 75 grain bullet... but even with 55 grain bullets and a lot better quality ammo you should be able to improve just based on that alone.

[rxer311]

My last zero at 50 yards is dead center which is the top left bullseye on the first target. The top right is about 1/2" high but I brought it down 2 clicks and it was dead center so I don't think my zero is high in this instance. Is my group at 100 yards high? It definitely is. Ballistically, you are correct that the group should only be 1-2" high at 100 yards, however, in my experience all of my rifles shoot about 3-4" high at 100 yards with a 50 yard zero. So in practice, it seems theoretical ballistics seem to go out the window. I am more concerned about improving my precision. I don't mind if my groups are 4" high at 100 yards with a 50 yard zero as long as it is repeatable.

Also, I am using the top hash mark for my 50 yard zero as per the instructions with the scope. I continued to use that has mark to shoot at 100 yards and 200 yards as the 2nd hash mark is used for 300 yards with a 50 yard zero with the top hash being used for 50-200 yard shooting.

I could zero my turrets and set another zero for 100 yards, but I am not really concerned with the location of my groups in relation to my point of aim from an elevation standpoint (as long as my windage is on point). I really was expecting the Hornady Match ammo at 68gr to perform better than the mil spec stuff, but I may have to try a few more types of ammo to see what it likes.

At this point I know I am not capable of shooting 1 MOA, even with the best ammo, but I would like to strive towards that goal. I am looking for overall tips to improve my precision.

[schambers]

Its hard to diagnose someone's shooting ability v. firearm mechanical accuracy over the internet.

Two things to think about:

1.) Assuming your gun is mechanically sound: From the groups you are showing us, I might guess that you need to concentrate on trigger/grip control and follow through. Concentrate and diagnose one aspect of shooting at a time and see if changing things around makes any significant difference. When I started in long range shooting, I gripped pistol grips and rifle stocks like you generally see most people doing; loose fingers, and of the index finger on the trigger and thumb resting somewhere off to the side. I eventually realized that for me, obtaining a full grip around whatever I was holding (like one would grip a pistol), and curling my finger around the trigger as much as I can, was giving me the most control and the best groups. Experiment and find what shooting styles work best for you, even if its not what you see most people doing.

2.) Assuming you are properly applying fundamentals: There may be something you did in assembly that is causing unacceptable accuracy. I recently put a custom rifle into a new chassis and had the torque values set at 60in/lbs on both mounting screws. The setup was producing 1.5" groups @ 100 yards and I new this was way outside of what should be happening. I did some lite research and found out that I needed one screw set at 60in/lbs and the other set at 45in/lbs. After making the adjustment, the setup now produces 0.8" groups at 200 yards with boring regularity. I'm pretty sure the gun can do better than that, but I still need to work on my shooting in order to push it further.

Small and seemingly insignificant things can effect accuracy at range. I would double check manufacturer suggested torque values of all components and make changes accordingly. Do not over-torque, do not under-torque.

Also, you may be reaching the mechanical accuracy potential of the parts you have put together.

[UWone77]

I would ask a buddy to shoot the gun and see what kind of results he gets.

[Former11B]

Your rifle actually might like 69+ gr ammo. M193/855 is NOT match ammo and is 2-4 MOA ammo, designed to hit a man sized target (19" shoulders) out to 300 meters or so.

My match 1:8 barrel HATED 68gr Black Hills ammo, I mean horrible groups but turned around and shoots fantastic with 69 & 77gr ammo

Don't think the rifle has a problem by testing one type of match ammo and two types of bulk ammo. Second, what's your experience with the platform? Meaning are you familiar with and are properly implementing the basic fundamentals of marksmanship? Do you/have you ever use/d iron sights?

Lastly, the scope isn't a precision scope. It's designed to help you make hits on a person using the ammo (55-62gr) at the distances on the reticle, NOT tight groups. You have to be realistic. The rifle looks like a quality build, so it IS capable of more.

You say you aren't capable of MOA shooting, so applying tolerance stacking: greater than MOA shooter + non precision scope + non precision ammo (or ammo your rifle doesn't like) = not MOS results. If YOU know you're the issue, take a class! Get some one on one instruction and have a pro give you some pointers

[alamo5000]

Your rifle actually might like 69+ gr ammo...

My match 1:8 barrel HATED 68gr Black Hills ammo, I mean horrible groups but turned around and shoots fantastic with 69 & 77gr ammo

^^^ What he said.

I had the same experience with the 68gr bullets. Then I tried 69gr bullets and I wound up with a 10 shot group that was about 3/4 of an inch at 100 yards.

That said I am of the same school of thought as the others. It's impossible to know without more info. I agree that having a friend shoot it will help... but I also think trying different brands of ammo until you find better results won't hurt anything. Going to the cheap lane for ammo and expecting really good groups generally won't work.

[UWone77]

Lastly, the scope isn't a precision scope.

Basically why I dumped all but 1 of my Strike Eagles.

[Stone]

I think part of your problem is you are chasing your true zero. You need to zero the rifle first with the most accurate ammo you can find, not range and or plinking ammo. When the rifle and scope have its true zero then all other ammo and shooting skills can be judged from a correct starting point, you did it backwards. Try a few boxes of Eagle eye http://www.eagleeyeammo.com/223-rem-69gr-hpbt/ or Black hills 60g Vmax, both are crazy accurate. Do some research on these skills:

1. Shooting on your respiratory pause
2. Cheek weld
3. Proper trigger press and follow through

Not sure of the round count on the barrel but it could take upwards of 300 rounds for a barrel to "settle in" before accuracy tightens up. I would swap out the Ruger trigger for a Geissle, but that's just my opinion. Also shooting different weight bullets will have an effect on POA and POI. Next time you take the rifle out do a half dozen or so realistic dry fires and check yourself for mistakes before you send rounds down range.

"I am more concerned about improving my precision" If this is true your going to have to use only high end ammo otherwise you are wasting your time and money. Good luck!

[alamo5000]

I think part of your problem is you are chasing your true zero. You need to zero the rifle first with the most accurate ammo you can find, not range and or plinking ammo. When the rifle and scope have its true zero then all other ammo and shooting skills can be judged from a correct starting point, you did it backwards....

"I am more concerned about improving my precision" If this is true your going to have to use only high end ammo otherwise you are wasting your time and money.

You will not find better advice than this.

[rxer311]

Thanks everybody. I do not think there is a problem with the rifle. I am looking for advice on how to shoot for precision. It looks like I took the wrong approach and that is why I ask questions. Thank you for the recommendations on ammo as well. I will need that advice to get a true zero as mentioned. I may not get back to the range for a few weeks but I will report back after I get some more data points to show.

[Former11B]

Practicing for precision needs to wait. You're about to spend a lot of money on ammo chasing your tail

Use your 55/62gr ammo at 25 yards with iron sights practicing the fundamentals (Google Army Study Guide: Basic Rifle Marksmanship). Maybe even practice the shooting positions (mainly prone supported) without ammo, and practice dry fire while working on sight picture, cheek weld, breathing, and trigger squeeze. Upgrade to live ammo at 25 yards with irons and work on group/zero and THEN move to magnified optics and expensive ammo

You have to master the basics before attempting a higher discipline

[schambers]

Maybe even practice the shooting positions (mainly prone supported) without ammo, and practice dry fire while working on sight picture, cheek weld, breathing, and trigger squeeze. Upgrade to live ammo at 25 yards with irons and work on group/zero and THEN move to magnified optics and expensive ammo

I agree with this. Also practice dime drills if you've never done them before. They will help to diagnose trigger control and follow through. Take your time when practicing fundamentals, pay attention to what your body is doing and find out what works for you.

+75% of precision/ long distance shooting comes down to how well the shooter can properly apply the basic fundamentals.

Also, I'm generally of the opinion that you don't need to shoot expensive or match ammunition out of AR's. I almost exclusively shoot mid-price rounds out of my AR's because (all except one) they have barrels under 16" and I'm using them inside of 300 yards. My wife's AR has a 20" barrel and she shoots that at longer ranges and that's the only AR that sees match .223 ammo.

[tact]

Strike Eagle does not equal precision...