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  1. #16
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    Kahles reticles need to catch up with the optical quality of their products. I do like my NF optics but they are no more or no less durable than any other. 2 out of 4 I have owned went back for issues. And honestly I do not abuse hardly any of my weapons.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SINNER View Post
    Kahles reticles need to catch up with the optical quality of their products. I do like my NF optics but they are no more or no less durable than any other. 2 out of 4 I have owned went back for issues. And honestly I do not abuse hardly any of my weapons.
    What optics and what issues did you have and when (production year)?

  3. #18
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    My 3.5-15x50 had issues with the illumination twice. After it failed the second time the optic was replaced. The other one was a 2.5-10x42 that internally fogged on a hunt in the Rockies. That one really hurt my trust in their optics, partially due to how poorly they handled the issue. I no longer own either of those optics. My 1-4 and 5.5-22 have been flawless but I have not purchased another since the 2.5-10 issues. I much prefer the clarity and reticles of the Steiners over the NF anyway.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by SINNER View Post
    My 3.5-15x50 had issues with the illumination twice. After it failed the second time the optic was replaced. The other one was a 2.5-10x42 that internally fogged on a hunt in the Rockies. That one really hurt my trust in their optics, partially due to how poorly they handled the issue. I no longer own either of those optics. My 1-4 and 5.5-22 have been flawless but I have not purchased another since the 2.5-10 issues. I much prefer the clarity and reticles of the Steiners over the NF anyway.
    Illumination...whatever, but fogging internally and poor CS are pretty "ouch". *sigh*
    I guess I might as well sack up and buy a K16i. The thing really is like having the world delivered to your face in HD. The SM1 reticle isn't too "bad", minus lack of wind holds, but that's not really necessary for my use.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGifford View Post
    Illumination...whatever, but fogging internally and poor CS are pretty "ouch". *sigh*
    I guess I might as well sack up and buy a K16i. The thing really is like having the world delivered to your face in HD. The SM1 reticle isn't too "bad", minus lack of wind holds, but that's not really necessary for my use.
    Call me crazy but the illumination failing is a big deal to me. ANY failure on a optic approaching 2k is unacceptable in my opinion. I know things happen but when you wait 8 weeks for an optic back and the same problem occurs after the 3rd shot on an issue they claimed was a one in a million chance of happening in the first place I become real skeptical.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by SINNER View Post
    Call me crazy but the illumination failing is a big deal to me. ANY failure on a optic approaching 2k is unacceptable in my opinion. I know things happen but when you wait 8 weeks for an optic back and the same problem occurs after the 3rd shot on an issue they claimed was a one in a million chance of happening in the first place I become real skeptical.
    I understand and agree. What I meant was, it wouldn't deadline the optic. Maybe a 3.5-15, but not the FC-3G reticle. Fogging would flat-out deadline it. Period.

    I have to say, though, the 1-4 NF NXS is still a heavy contender for me, to be honest. It is the most durable optic I have found based on "the stats" (1250g's fore/aft. ACOG's only endure I think 1,100g's in testing), it's waterproof to 100 feet, and it has a locking diopter and capped turrets. It simply seems like a tank, to me. As I understand it, the reticle works fine day or night behind a WML without illumination necessary.

    That said, the more fragile scopes do offer daylight bright illumination.

    This is turning into a tough call for my "do all" optic and carbine.

  7. #22
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    Well, I ended up buying a Comp M4s aimpoint. I think I will buy a 2.5-10X NF later. Put them both in Bobro mounts, and swap them around for what I need. I simply do not think a tube-style optic can compete with an RDS for effectiveness 0-50 yards from various shooting positions in various lighting conditions.

    I did test out an LCO, SRS, and PRO back to back, at SWFA, which is what led to me buying the Comp.

  8. #23
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    Out of curiosity, what was it that the M4s did that the PRO didn't do (other than cost a bit more)?

  9. #24
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    Optic Observations (1 - 4X Variable Scopes)



    Bright light! Bright light!

    The pic below shows a view looking through an Aimpoint M4S with its illumination at the highest setting. The target in the view has two very bright, white photography lights shining on it from a distance of less than 2 feet; basically the brightest ambient light that I was able to produce indoors.









    Now, here is a pic using the exact same setup of lights and target, except this time the optic used is a Schmidt & Bender Short Dot LE.









    Here are the two views, side by side.








    Horton Sees a Hue

    The pic below shows a view looking through a Short Dot LE with the magnification set at 1.1X. The chimney in the middle of the view is approximately 100 yards away. Notice the orange leaves and bricks, the green shingles and the white and yellow aluminum siding. Also notice that the only hue, in the view, that remotely resembles a shade of blue, is the small patch of sky near 3 o’clock.














    Colors

    There has been a lot of bandwidth devoted to the color of reticles as of late, particularly the color green. Pictured below is a view through a Trijicon TR24-G, which has the green triangle reticle. The scope is “aimed” at a target that is 25 feet away, in a pitch dark room!









    Here is the same view, only this time looking through a Trijicon TR24-R, which has the red triangle reticle.









    Both views, side by side.









    Now, here are the same scopes, in the same set-up, with the only thing different being a switched-on SureFire X300 white light attached to the left rail of the handguard.
























    Radioactive.

    The major weakness of most optics that utilize tritium and fiber optics to illuminate the reticle has been the “washing out” of the reticle when aiming into a brightly lit area from a dark area. The Trijicon TR24 series of Accupoints has vastly improved this situation, although not completely eliminated it.

    The view below is looking through a TR24-G that is in a darkened area of the house, looking into a brightly lit area. As you can see, the fiber optics are not being fed enough light to brightly illuminate the reticle and the tritium is having a hard time overcoming the brightness of the target area. The reticle is certainly still usable, although not ideal.









    This is the type of situation in which scopes with battery powered illuminated reticles really shine (no pun intended.) The next picture shows the same set-up as above, but looking through a NightForce NXS 1-4 x 24 at 1X magnification with the illumination on.









    Again the same set-up, this time looking through a Short Dot LE at 1.1X magnification with the illumination on.










    The Ruler of Truth

    Pictured below is a view of an Aimpoint M4S with a metal ruler running through its field of view and beyond. Notice that the lines formed by the top and bottom edges of the ruler continue uninterrupted when passing through the Aimpoint’s field of view. Notice that the numbers and graduation marks are the exact same size, both inside the Aimpoint’s field of view and out. This is “true” 1X magnification; that is to say, no magnification at all.









    The next view has the ruler running through the field of view of an EOTech HoloSight. Again, the lines of the ruler continue uninterrupted and the ruler remains the exact same size inside the EOTech’s fied of view and out.









    Now, let’s apply the Ruler of Truth to what many here have called a “true 1X” optic, the Trijicon Accupoint TR24-R. The magnification ring is set to 1X in the view below.










    As you can clearly see, the lines formed by the edges of the ruler are shifted when running through the field of view of the TR24-R and the ruler is clearly larger inside the field of view of the TR24-R; that is to say, the ruler is MAGNIFIED.









    The Ruler of Truth applied to a NightForce 1- 4 x 24 NXS with the magnification ring set to 1X reveals the same findings.














    The Ruler of Truth applied to a Short Dot LE with the magnification ring set to 1.1X shows little difference from the NightForce NXS on 1X.














    In truth, since the “true 1X” scopes are not truly without magnification in the truest sense of the word like an Aimpoint or EOTech, the only thing that truly matters is, can these optics be easily used with human binocular vision; that is, both eyes opened and focused on the target at the same time? The answer is a resounding yes, just as it is with the Short Dot LE at 1.1X magnification.




    Focus On The Front Sight


    Here's a view of the front sight when looking through an Aimpoint M4S.









    This view is looking through a NightForce NXS 1-4 x 24 at 1X magnification.









    12 O'Clock High









    Weighing In


    Trijicon TR24 with LaRue SPR-E mount:

    1 pound, 6 ounces



    Aimpoint M4S combined with Aimpoint 3X magnifier, both in LaRue mounts:

    1 pound 6.8 ounces




    NightForce 1- 4 x 24 NXS with LaRue SPR-S mount:

    1 pound, 7.5 ounces



    Schmidt & Bender Short Dot LE with a LaRue SPR-E mount:

    1 pound, 11.1 ounces




    …..

  10. #25
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    Molon,

    I've posted in response to this before. You might consider revising your ruler of truth section.

    Some of the 1-4/1-6 scopes really are 1x at their lowest magnification. The reason the ruler is larger when looking through them at close range is due to the objective lens being closer by the length of the scope. It's the same as if you moved your head 12" closer without a scope; the ruler would appear larger.

    This is more noticeable if an object is 2 feet away. It is not noticeable at longer distances. Try putting the ruler at 15 feet and doing the same test. :)
    Will - Owner of Arisaka LLC - http://www.arisakadefense.com

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatordev View Post
    Out of curiosity, what was it that the M4s did that the PRO didn't do (other than cost a bit more)?
    It took a AA lithium and weighed about the same once the mount was included. To me, that made it better, so I bought it.

    That said, while I love the COMP and will keep it, I am probably going to go back to the T2/G33 combo for my "do all" carbine. I simply have not found anything that beats it.

  12. #27
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    Gotcha. I guess with how infrequently I have to change a PRO battery, it seems like a wash to me, given the price, but commonality can definitely be important.

  13. #28
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    I got a chance to handle the NF 1-4x FC-3G today.

    I experienced none of the diopter shift that I did with the VCOG until I tried to look at something 2-3 feet away. Literally at the muzzle distance almost. In short, the optic had no real shift from 1x to 4x that was tangible. The reticle and target were both crystal clear and in the same plane of focus at 1x up close, and at 4x across the street.

    The illumination was dimmer than I had even thought it would be, especially given Molon's photos. Indoors, you could tell it was on when set to "MAX" and aimed at something black. This was with overhead florescent lights, in a typical "indoor" type setting at the gun-store. It was not operating-room bright, nor was it as dim as some living-rooms. Just well lit. Aiming it at something light colored, the dot was black. Only the center dot illuminates.

    At 1x, there was a bit of "fish-eye" feeling, as parallax was very noticeable. Not enough to cause a miss unless you're shooting at golf-balls across the dining-room from unconventional positions, but it was noticeable. Kindof like driving a sports car with the tires 3-4psi lower than they should be. It wasn't a safety issue on the regular highway, but it just felt...off a touch. The eyebox was decent. It was not bad, but not good. Really almost escaped my notice except to test it out. What I liked, is that on 1x, it was reasonably difficult to totally obscure the use of the scope. You could "shade" it if you weren't in the eyebox pretty solid, but I could even hold it out at arms length and still see about 50-60% of the diameter of the occular full of sight picture. Easily you could punch out from the prone with your carbine and use it as such no problem with a touch of practice.

    I personally found the smaller reticle (it's not super bold/thick like some, such as SWFA's 1-4) and dim illumination to be what soured the deal for me. It certainly would be blazing fast on white IPSC targets or whatever, but in a complex environment with varying lighting, I feel like the reticle would present the possibility of getting washed like an ACOG reticle, except it never was 1/10th as bright to begin with.That is the deal killer for me, here, is 1X performance. It's just lacking in complex environments, IMO.

    Optically, I do not feel that the T2/G33 combo give up much to the Nightforce. If the NF is an 8/10 optically, I'd say the T2/G33 would rank a 6.5-7/10. I plan on buying another T2/G33 instead of the NF, after handing one. It is a great optic, but it just doesn't offer the utility of the T2 across a room. Not by a long shot. Also, the weight of the T2 and G33 in mounts is = to the NF by itself.

  14. #29
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    Well, I bounced back again on my opinion. Mainly because I found a new-old-stock FC-2 reticle NXS w/PTL. I'm going to see how I like it. Put $500 down on it today, and next paycheck plan on taking her home. I really think the FC-2 reticle with its larger illuminated area, simpler form-factor, and larger reticle will be the ticket. If not, it will be a great optic for resale, because the FC-2 is immensely popular, many prefer it over the FC-3G, and NF only made the FC-2 with the new PTL integrated into the scope for one year (2013 production). So, resale should not hurt, especially considering I did not pay retail as it was old-stock. Win/win/win. Risk free trial!

  15. #30
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    Since noone seems to have these photos, I took a few. My new Nightforce 1-4 NXS with FC-2 reticle arrived, and out came the cheap potato to document! All photos are with illumination set on "Max" unless otherwise noted. This should give a good idea of what one can expect in nearly every lighting environment one will encounter at night. Daylight pictures will have to wait for a bit, for technical reasons.


    White wall, 3 meters, illumination off, 800 lumen bulbs (x2) behind white ceiling light diffuser:

    White wall, 3 meters, illumination on, 800 lumen bulbs (x2) behind white ceiling light diffuser:

    White wall, 3 meters, Surefire M600 Ultra (500 lumen) providing illumination, series:



    Standing in living-room, standard residential brightness (to my eyes), unsure of lumens of bulb(s). 1X, aiming across parkinglot at door 50m distant:

    Standing in living-room, standard residential brightness (to my eyes), unsure of lumens of bulb(s). 4X, aiming across parkinglot at door 50m distant:

    Gas station, approximately 150m, 1x:

    Gas station, approximately 150m, 4x:

    Dark parkinglot into lit apartment, distance to door @ 10m:

    Overcast with light rain, 1x, full illumination, Jeep@150 yards:

    Overcast with light rain, 4x, full illumination, Jeep@150 yards:

    Overcast with light rain, 1x, no illumination, Jeep@150 yards:

    Overcast with light rain, 4x, no illumination, Jeep@150 yards:



    Very pleased so far. Here is a picture for size/scale. I have not bought a mount for it yet, although I'm working on a deal for the one I want.


    -I do notice a tiny bit of magnification on 1x. It is functionally a non-issue, and there is no phoria.

    -Everything is tough. The diopter adjustment locks, the scope and all adjustments feel very "robust".

    -The glass is very very good. Not Kahles, but VERY good.

    -Light transmission on 1x at night is very good. It is similar to the un-aided eye. Not darker, certainly.

    -I noticed NONE of the diopter shift issues that I had with the VCOG. On 1x across the room it looks good, at 4x across the parkinglot it looks good...blurry smartphone pix not withstanding.
    Last edited by JGifford; 27 October 2015 at 08:08.

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