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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
    If its not a firearm then what is it? The only thing missing to make it go boom is a bullet. How is their kit any different from me buying a glock in a box? The only thing missing from the glock in a box to make it go boom is a bullet. Just to be clear the ATF has zero issues with the 80% lowers... That has not changed.

    Lets keep in mind why they are going after this:"The raid by agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives comes after ghost guns have been used more frequently in high-profile attacks. In September, two Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department deputies were shot while sitting in their patrol vehicle by a man using a handgun built from Polymer80 parts, according to the documents."

    Somebody who walks up to a couple of cops sitting in their car and executes them probably should not have a super easy avenue to acquire a firearm... I mean no disrespect BU, just want to debate on the merits of the topic...
    No disrespect taken and none intended, but I get somewhere between disappointed and nervous when I see gun-guys start rationalizing shit like this.

    You realize it's still an 80% lower in the box, right? So, it's not a firearm. There is no law that I'm aware of (at least at the federal level) that prevents anyone from buying an 80% frame/lower because they are legally not firearms. So, if the item is not restricted, how does that change when other non-restricted things are in the same box? Putting other things in the same box as an 80% lower doesn't turn that lower into a firearm. That's my point.

    The ATF's logic, and what you are saying, is that buying an 80% lower is fine, but if that 80% lower comes in a box with all the other stuff you need to complete the pistol then it's not OK. So, if you buy the parts from different vendors, or even add them all to you shopping cart from a single vendor but separately = OK, bundled together as one "kit" = not OK. That's twisted logic, at best.

  2. #17
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    No disrespect taken and none intended, but I get somewhere between disappointed and nervous when I see gun-guys start rationalizing shit like this.

    I dont feel I am rationalizing it, nor am I choosing sides. But just looking at the facts to try and make sense of it while keeping emotions out of it. My positions have not changed one bit. The NFA is BS. The existence of the ATF is highly questionable and the majority of firearms laws are a joke. But there still needs to be some laws in place to prevent chaos. Would you not agree?

    You realize it's still an 80% lower in the box, right? So, it's not a firearm. There is no law that I'm aware of (at least at the federal level) that prevents anyone from buying an 80% frame/lower because they are legally not firearms. So, if the item is not restricted, how does that change when other non-restricted things are in the same box? Putting other things in the same box as an 80% lower doesn't turn that lower into a firearm. That's my point.

    As foolish as it seems, lines need to be drawn in the sand at some point for personal safety. But again, how is that box any different from buying a glock in a box? 90% of the parts in that box are non regulated as well. P80 could have just made a phone call to the ATF and ran it by them FIRST to avoid this fiasco. I get where your coming from and understand your position.

    The ATF's logic, and what you are saying, is that buying an 80% lower is fine, but if that 80% lower comes in a box with all the other stuff you need to complete the pistol then it's not OK. So, if you buy the parts from different vendors, or even add them all to you shopping cart from a single vendor but separately = OK, bundled together as one "kit" = not OK. That's twisted logic, at best.

    I agree, so what would be a solution? The logic may be twisted from the get go, the whole 80% thing is just an arbitrary number put together by people in an office somewhere. I dont agree with the ATF, or P80. Just because I point out the flaws according to P80's actions that violate current laws doesnt mean I am for either side.
    But even if one of my kids pokes a dog with a sharp stick then gets bit does not mean I get angry with the dog.
    Last edited by Stone; 12 December 2020 at 13:04.
    The best way to survive a violent encounter is to be the one inflicting the most violence.

  3. #18
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    The “kit” , I didn’t pay attention to really.

    Sure seems sketchy they could sell it that way..and probably the end of p80 unfortunately...oh well , they wouldn’t sell to WA anyways..

    80% pieces are just that,pieces of plastic . not a firearm to atf..as they have defined.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
    I dont feel I am rationalizing it, nor am I choosing sides. But just looking at the facts to try and make sense of it while keeping emotions out of it. My positions have not changed one bit. The NFA is BS. The existence of the ATF is highly questionable and the majority of firearms laws are a joke. But there still needs to be some laws in place to prevent chaos. Would you not agree?

    As foolish as it seems, lines need to be drawn in the sand at some point for personal safety. But again, how is that box any different from buying a glock in a box? 90% of the parts in that box are non regulated as well. P80 could have just made a phone call to the ATF and ran it by them FIRST to avoid this fiasco. I get where your coming from and understand your position.

    I agree, so what would be a solution? The logic may be twisted from the get go, the whole 80% thing is just an arbitrary number put together by people in an office somewhere. I dont agree with the ATF, or P80. Just because I point out the flaws according to P80's actions that violate current laws doesnt mean I am for either side.
    But even if one of my kids pokes a dog with a sharp stick then gets bit does not mean I get angry with the dog.
    There needs to be laws...

    Lines need to be drawn...

    What would be a solution?

    P80's actions that violate current laws...


    Ok, you are getting to the crux of the matter. I think you are more focused on where those lines should be drawn and I'm more concerned about the manner in which they are drawn. From my perspective, this fundamentally is more about how laws are made, interpreted and enforced then it is about what the law actually says. In this case, no legislation has changed the relevant laws which folks have been operating under for quite some time (anyone know when the ATF first published guidance on 80% firearms?). However, the law as written has some gray area around what constitutes a firearm (.e.g, when does a box of parts become a gun?). Generally speaking, government agencies make and publish their interpretations of the laws which impacts how those laws are enforced. This true for the ATF but is the same model as the EPA, for example.

    In this case, that agency has for quite some time held, published, and enforced two relevant items:
    1) Every firearm has one piece, typically the frame or receiver, that for legal purposes is treated as "the firearm", and
    2) If that piece is less than 80% complete, it is not a firearm

    So, lines are and have been drawn for quite some time. If the ATF had simply published a policy memo revising / updating their interpretation I suspect everyone selling "complete" 80% build kits would have simply adjusted and complied. No one really wants to risk violating federal firearms laws, especially when it is how you make your livelihood. However, the ATF instead apparently changed it's mind, didn't tell anyone, and is now seizing property. Note that no charges have been filed and I'm not aware of any new policy or position memos on this topic having been made public.

    While I agree we need laws, they need to be clear and consistent. In this case, the ATFs actions appear arbitrary, which actually undermines the legitimacy of the law and the agency.

    I think everyone thought they were playing by the rules, as silly as they may be, but now they are at risk for getting burned nonetheless. If you tell me that something isn't a firearm, shipping the not-a-firearm with additional spare parts doesn't change that. Did the ATF just figure out that people are completing the other 20% of the receiver/frame and assembling them into functioning firearms?


    how is that box any different from buying a glock in a box?
    It's different because the frame is 80% complete and cannot be assembled into a firearm as-is, which is consistent with the ATFs published policy that it is not a firearm and therefore does not need to be transferred as such. The ATF never based the 80% on the fully functioning firearm, they based it on the serialized part, which means the barrel, slide, etc. are irrelevant. I get that people disagree and don't like that, but that is why we have a legislative process.

    There are MANY on-line retailers that sell build kits with 80% lowers/frames included. This practice has been going on for years. I suspect all of them are scrambling to stop that practice right now given the ATFs actions, which is probably all the ATF really wanted out of this anyway.

  5. #20
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    And word is. Biden has said he is going to sign some executive orders regarding 2nd amendment stuff tomorrow.. “ghost guns” as they call them and pistol braces are in the conversation..

    Buckle up..

  6. #21
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    Executive orders carry no weight of law, they are merely suggestions. I wouldn't sweat it...
    The best way to survive a violent encounter is to be the one inflicting the most violence.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stone View Post
    Executive orders carry no weight of law, they are merely suggestions. I wouldn't sweat it...
    This.

    There has never been a training bulletin coming out of my department to alter course on existing laws because of executive orders. Thanks for the suggestion Sleepy Joe, but what statute would we charge people under? We don't.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    This.

    There has never been a training bulletin coming out of my department to alter course on existing laws because of executive orders. Thanks for the suggestion Sleepy Joe, but what statute would we charge people under? We don't.
    I just got some marketing material for a polymer 80 blowout sale.

    While I agree whole heartedly with your comment, the POTUS along with some people on the other side can make life miserable for some people. It's sort of like the cop that pulls you over and decides to do a road side inspection of your vehicle because you were going 2mph over the limit.

    Whether or not it's legit charges or not they can get people tied up in court for quite some time. Which in this case could well be retail outfits. The minute they find a receipt from Brownells or whoever or a credit card statement from some clown that robbed a 7-11 with a home built gun they can become a thorn in the side of companies that sold the kit whether it's actually part of the law or not.

    As an example look at those people that had a mob break down a gate and go out to their lawn. When they went outside with an AR they were well within their rights...but here we sit.

  9. #24
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    I’m not sweating nothing.. just adding to the crap and seen no other post here about it.

  10. #25
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    Not really related to the law topic per say, but it’s staggering the amount of completed P80’s I would see confiscated in Baltimore City on their FB page. At least weekly, sometimes multiple’s a week.

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