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  1. #1
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    Good training vs. ?absent? training

    Example is cop training. Not intended to start a shitfest, so mods feel free to can it if it goes that way.

    Example #1: Cop pulls service weapon, yells "TASER! TASER! TASER!" and shoots an individual resisting arrest. Poor training? No practice? Absent training? Same thing??? Lots of variables we don't know, was the Taser worn correctly, ie; on the weak side to prevent drawing a lethal solution under stress. Is the officer current on training? Training is a perishable skill, whereas stress never sleeps.

    Result: the officer was swiftly fired and awaits trial for negligent manslaughter. Career and future gone, in a handful of seconds.

    Example #2: Cop rolls up on a domestic involving a juvenile with a knife. He identifies a threat, with knife hand drawn back, preparing to stab a victim. In a split second, the cop triages the situation, eliminates the threat with several lethal shots to center mass. On its face, this looks like a "good shoot". The officer had almost no time to make a decision, and any hesitation on his part might have resulted in the victim being lethally wounded, as well as the juvenile doing the attacking, as it didn't look like she was going to shut her rage down. Again, conjecture, however CPD did the smart thing and released the body cam footage immediately, showing beyond reasonable doubt that the officer had no time to pursue plan B, whatever, or if there might have been one.

    Result: Officer placed on active administrative leave, community loses its mind, media demonizes him for making the only sensible decision. Or was it? It's easy to see why so many cops are leaving the force across the nation. Aside from being executed at a much higher rate than the "unarmed innocent victims" they are accused of, you have no help from truthful reporting anymore because it doesn't mesh with political agendas.

    Discuss.
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  2. #2
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    How many hours a month does the average LEO spend in training? My understanding is that, generally speaking, most people would be pretty amazed and how little training most LEO actually get on an annual basis.

    That said, you can't train for every scenario, and it's not exactly like you have to make it through BUDS to get a badge.

    As they say, good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.

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    Couple of thoughts:

    Everyone in the media and uneducated citizens keep screaming training, training, training. There isn't curriculums for every type of thing that can go wrong. Years ago I had a recruit, who could not remember to turn on her radio every time she got out of the car. Reminding her at every call, having her practice get out of the car and then turning on her radio multiple times, not telling her until she had to get on the radio as a clue that it was off, none of it worked. Sometimes you just can't do something even if the task is simple when there is a tiny bit of stress involved.

    The taser incident... well let's face it, the taser isn't rocket science. You don't need weekly, monthly reps on it. If you're so assed up that in a stressful situation, you draw the wrong tool and shoot and kill someone, you shouldn't be doing this job. I know nothing about her career path, but it wouldn't surprise me if that officer didn't do a lot of street work and if she did, there's not a lot that goes on in that city that raises the stress level of the average cop there. Some officers get better and better as they progress through the years. Others suck year 1 and just repeat it 30 times.

    Also, just because you get training, that doesn't mean anything. You have to have the right mind set and the ability to apply what you've learned. If you don't take training seriously, you won't get anything out of it. A lot of officers just want to check off the box and make sure they sign the training roster. They couldn't tell you one thing the instructor told them the next day.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    Couple of thoughts:

    Everyone in the media and uneducated citizens keep screaming training, training, training. There isn't curriculums for every type of thing that can go wrong. Years ago I had a recruit, who could not remember to turn on her radio every time she got out of the car. Reminding her at every call, having her practice get out of the car and then turning on her radio multiple times, not telling her until she had to get on the radio as a clue that it was off, none of it worked. Sometimes you just can't do something even if the task is simple when there is a tiny bit of stress involved.

    The taser incident... well let's face it, the taser isn't rocket science. You don't need weekly, monthly reps on it. If you're so assed up that in a stressful situation, you draw the wrong tool and shoot and kill someone, you shouldn't be doing this job. I know nothing about her career path, but it wouldn't surprise me if that officer didn't do a lot of street work and if she did, there's not a lot that goes on in that city that raises the stress level of the average cop there. Some officers get better and better as they progress through the years. Others suck year 1 and just repeat it 30 times.

    Also, just because you get training, that doesn't mean anything. You have to have the right mind set and the ability to apply what you've learned. If you don't take training seriously, you won't get anything out of it. A lot of officers just want to check off the box and make sure they sign the training roster. They couldn't tell you one thing the instructor told them the next day.
    To piggyback off of your post...something I was thinking but didn't know how to phrase it.

    Most of the people that I think are exceptional at their jobs had a different type of training. It wasn't doing reps turning on a radio either. I don't know if you call it 'experience' or 'training' but people who have gone through stressful training (typically by the military) are much less likely to get rattled by small things.

    For example if you took people that went through some form of advanced training (say Ranger school ) have had to learn how to deal with stress in ways that someone off the street never has. In a way the people that have gone to some form or another of experience like or similar to what I am describing gives them much more self awareness about reality and weakness to help them deal with it better.

    Some people that try to be cops are better off being assigned to do paperwork or media relations. The guy/girl that walks the street putting up with shit all day and in ways trying to relate to everyone from a battered woman to a runaway kid is a whole different story.

    There is this 'thing'... I don't know what you would call it... that in my opinion makes a whole lot of difference. It's kind of a 3 way cross between intelligence, training, and experience.

    Even if you take someone who has just gone to USMC basic training... before he/she went in if someone got in their face on the street they would be prone to slap the shit out of someone. After getting yelled at for 6 weeks and being in a 'your feelings don't matter now shut up and wait, now fill out these documents in triplicate' kind of environment for a year or so can sort of mellow people out about small things.

    Age is a factor as well.

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    I will add one more thing, not directly related, but I think needs to be said. As I come up on 20 years of service, I think the most important trait for a LEO is your mind set, along with that is your mental toughness. You will be beat down daily by citizens, your fellow officers, the administration, local, state, national politics. You have to be able to ignore and filter 99% of the noise, especially from the couch commandos that often say they know your job better than you do, and coulda, woulda, shoulda have done this. They'll complain about the lack of training, only to slash your budget at the same time. That's the nature of the beast and if you can't deal with that rhetoric on a daily basis, then this job is not for you.

    I will admit these last few years have been challenging for me as well, but I know I always do the right thing with the best intentions when I'm working, so I have nothing to worry about as far as daily fears about my job security. I see a lot of LEO's claim they are mentally tough, but have withered and quit. I don't look down or pity them, but I'm happy they realized that this wasn't for them and moved on. I plan to do at least 5 more years and then I'll re-access on a yearly basis. I still enjoy coming to work and working with good people.

    One the newer generation of officers fully take over, I often have doubts whether they will have the skills or the mind set to arrest the worst of the worst.

  6. #6
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    Good discussion so far and fair observation on training mania. It is a component and there is too much focus on training alone. A big part of the problem for younger people is social ineptitude; if you can't take somebody's smack and turn it around on them, they'll eat you alive. The best cops are involved, know everybody's name, and demonstrate some competency with all skills, not just shoot-don't shoot.

    More later.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by UWone77 View Post
    Couple of thoughts:

    Everyone in the media and uneducated citizens keep screaming training, training, training. There isn't curriculums for every type of thing that can go wrong. Years ago I had a recruit, who could not remember to turn on her radio every time she got out of the car. Reminding her at every call, having her practice get out of the car and then turning on her radio multiple times, not telling her until she had to get on the radio as a clue that it was off, none of it worked. Sometimes you just can't do something even if the task is simple when there is a tiny bit of stress involved.

    The taser incident... well let's face it, the taser isn't rocket science. You don't need weekly, monthly reps on it. If you're so assed up that in a stressful situation, you draw the wrong tool and shoot and kill someone, you shouldn't be doing this job. I know nothing about her career path, but it wouldn't surprise me if that officer didn't do a lot of street work and if she did, there's not a lot that goes on in that city that raises the stress level of the average cop there. Some officers get better and better as they progress through the years. Others suck year 1 and just repeat it 30 times.

    Also, just because you get training, that doesn't mean anything. You have to have the right mind set and the ability to apply what you've learned. If you don't take training seriously, you won't get anything out of it. A lot of officers just want to check off the box and make sure they sign the training roster. They couldn't tell you one thing the instructor told them the next day.
    While I understand your point and I feel your passion on the topic, being the focus of so much negative commentary, TASER and SHOOT/DON'T SHOOT are absolutely training programs that are taught in POTA and across a cops career for obvious reasons (I know you are well aware of this, stating for the non-LEO people that might stop by). No matter what you think of it, it is an important topic and I hope you weren't lumping me in with the talking heads in the press. I agree that mindset is an important thing and great cops can come from the civil service exam, as well as prior military experience just as well as shitty ones can come from either and that a 4 year stint as a cook doesn't give anything but a point edge on the exam. This goes for all public safety personnel, and I'd much rather trust my life to a person who lives and breathes the service ethic, than one who's simply doing it for a paycheck. I also agree that mindset might have been a better topic title than training, but both are necessary, although there is no substitute for experience, and years on the job; training is merely a starting point for new recruits, but it's still important on both the teaching and learning side of the topic.

    I will repeat; the gift of gab is often a cop (Firefighter, EMT, etc.. ) best tool in dealing with the public. We have different ways of speaking based on the part of town we're in. If you can relate verbally, you have a lot better chance of defusing a situation than the guy who has no social skills and communicates mainly via text message. We've all seen those guys get into trouble where a little smooth talking would have made a difference.
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    All the more reason for every able citizen to watch their own backs, carry whenever possible, and keep a clear head. I can't imagine any kid wanting to go into policing, with all the rhetoric and bullshit going on these days. I feel for you LE guys. It's bad enough in High Tech, I can't even imagine what it's like to be a police officer these days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoxyDave View Post
    All the more reason for every able citizen to watch their own backs, carry whenever possible, and keep a clear head. I can't imagine any kid wanting to go into policing, with all the rhetoric and bullshit going on these days. I feel for you LE guys. It's bad enough in High Tech, I can't even imagine what it's like to be a police officer these days.
    100% ... most of you are way ahead of the game when it comes to recognizing you're the best tool when it comes to personal safety.

    Soon a lot of cities will get the police force they deserve very soon. 100% reactionary like the Fire Department, officers will be at the station until there is a call.

  10. #10
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    I'm buying stock in LaZBoy.

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    I think its a combination of all of the above, with the added bonus of body cams, cell phone cams, etc... When in public you have to live your life as though you are being recorded because more than likely you are. This goes 10 fold for LEO, they should teach that at the academy if they dont already.


    "Soon a lot of cities will get the police force they deserve very soon. 100% reactionary like the Fire Department, officers will be at the station until there is a call."

    How true, you keep poking the badger hole and eventually he will move away... Seems like cops are walking on egg shells, rightfully so though. Who wants to get sued or go to prison for protecting themselves from deadly force??? Eventually the idiots will just kill each other and we will move on.

    One of the biggest problems with society today is: When change is needed the pendulum swings WAY to far in that direction and over shoots the mark.
    Last edited by Stone; 7 May 2021 at 16:30.
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  12. #12
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    used to be, when something happened, people would call 9-1-1. Now. they're far more concerned with hitting record on their phones.

    Also, to the body cam observation: All public safety and healthcare professionals have a code of ethics set forth by their licensing body. We're supposed to be of the same good character whether somebody is looking or not, on duty and off.
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